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WWII Bomber comparison I Flying Fortress vs Lancaster

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Z, so what are we arguing about?
    If i have it right, you think that if the allies had concentrated on the transportation net instead of industrial targets the Luftwaffe would not be forced to fight. I think the sheer damaged caused by the allies on the transport net if undertaken earlier with the addition of the heavies would have forced the German fighters to contest the skies.

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    By the time the escort fighters were turned loose, there were not really any fighters to oppose them. Regardless the total collapse of the German economy did not happen until the fighters were turned loose.
    Z, so what are we arguing about?

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  • zraver
    replied
    By the time the escort fighters were turned loose, there were not really any fighters to oppose them. Regardless the total collapse of the German economy did not happen until the fighters were turned loose.

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    This is generally correct ,but until Normandy landings, german fighters accounted for most of ussaf losses .
    http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media...090608-043.pdf table 159.

    flak only took precedence when aircraft were committed to support the ground troops.

    I meant total numbers but you are correct.

    But I think it still proves my point.

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  • 1979
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Okay, so after the Allies had switched the bombing in the West towards transportation and energy.

    And after the Luftwaffe fighter arm was a hollow shell of its former self.

    And I realize that antiaircraft fire brought down a lot more bombers than did fighters but 128mm AA guns protecting Stuttgart ain't hitting GIs and Tommies in Normandy the way a fighter could.

    And going after the war industries forced the Luftwaffe to engage much more than ever did to protect tarnsportation. They protected transportation by AA guns not fighters.

    This is generally correct ,but until Normandy landings, german fighters accounted for most of ussaf losses .
    http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media...090608-043.pdf table 159.

    flak only took precedence when aircraft were committed to support the ground troops.

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    by 23 august 1944 .
    Okay, so after the Allies had switched the bombing in the West towards transportation and energy.

    And after the Luftwaffe fighter arm was a hollow shell of its former self.

    And I realize that antiaircraft fire brought down a lot more bombers than did fighters but 128mm AA guns protecting Stuttgart ain't hitting GIs and Tommies in Normandy the way a fighter could.

    And going after the war industries forced the Luftwaffe to engage much more than ever did to protect tarnsportation. They protected transportation by AA guns not fighters.

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  • 1979
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    What was the time frame?
    by 23 august 1944 .

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  • 1979
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Romanian production peaked in 42 at 5.7mb, falling to 5.3mb in 43 and 3.5mb (on pace for 4.3mb) in 44 when it was lost to the Soviets. Comparatively German domestic production was 6.6mb, 7.6mb and 5.5mb by year. As can be seen, allied bombing had little effect able to knock only 1.4mb of potential Romanian oil off line, the loss of Romania to the Soviets was far worse.
    for Romania those are the figures for crude extraction , craking and distilation is needed to turn it into gasoline or diesel .

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    85% of distilation and 82 % of craking capacity was lost so it would not have taken long to finish the job .
    What was the time frame?

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    85% of distilation and 82 % of craking capacity was lost so it would not have taken long to finish the job .
    Romanian production peaked in 42 at 5.7mb, falling to 5.3mb in 43 and 3.5mb (on pace for 4.3mb) in 44 when it was lost to the Soviets. Comparatively German domestic production was 6.6mb, 7.6mb and 5.5mb by year. As can be seen, allied bombing had little effect able to knock only 1.4mb of potential Romanian oil off line, the loss of Romania to the Soviets was far worse.

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  • 1979
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    It never stopped producing, correct?
    85% of distilation and 82 % of craking capacity was lost so it would not have taken long to finish the job .

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  • Albany Rifles
    replied
    It never stopped producing, correct?

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  • 1979
    replied
    Originally posted by Triple C View Post
    Z,

    I believe that Ploesti was producing at 1/5 capacity whilst being bombed. The problem was periods of poor weather that put it back online intermittently.

    Ploesti never produced at 100% capacity in the 40's , capacity of refining oil was 8.9 million tons while internal production was only 5-6 million .
    In addition germany also faced the same problem , existing refining capacity but insufficient crude.

    wrt weather that might be true for april and may but it was not in june , july or august when attacks stepped up .
    Last edited by 1979; 24 Feb 13,, 10:06.

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  • Triple C
    replied
    Z,

    I believe that Ploesti was producing at 1/5 capacity whilst being bombed. The problem was periods of poor weather that put it back online intermittently.

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  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

    Attacking transportation networks was not going to cause the Luftwaffe to react in a manner which would achieve the goal stated above. You had to go after essential industries and energy. And Ploesti, which was hit time and again but never put fully out of operation, proved just how hard it was to destroy a refinery....taking out a refinery was as difficult if not more difficult as taking out the sub pens.
    Sir, disagree that going after the transportation net as a primary target of the escort fighters [ and bombers] would not have forced the Luftwaffe to fight. Once the escort fighters were released to free hunt the roads and rail on their way home the German economy collapsed and German troop movements in the west became almost impossible when skies were clear. This threat had to be countered or Germany would be defeated. It wasn't countered and Germany was defeated. Had the fighters and bombers gone after German transport exclusively I think the war may well have ended earlier.

    Diverting the heavies to the big name targets made a contribution but not as much as it could have been. Attacks on the production of finished goods suffered perhaps a loss of 20% of theoretical potential (10% from direct loss to bomb damage and 10% loss due to dispersal), but Speer, natural slack in the German economy and the legions of slave labor available limited the damage the heavies could do. Throughout 1944 German production finally hit war winning levels (if it had them in 42). In some areas production rates in 1945 were on pace to exceed 1944's record levels. Under the peak of allied strategic air power, German production increased.

    Attacks on oil also tended to fall far short of expectations. The Soviets ended the Romanian oil supplies, not allied bombers. Though Polesti was never able to operate at peak levels due to bomb damage and falling well pressure it was never knocked out either. Inside Germany the number of refineries and synthetic plants was IIRC more numerous (62 total) and robust than the transportation net of switching yards and canal locks (47). Rail and boat accounted for 90% of German transportation capacity. The Germans proved quite adept at moving factories around, you can move canals or rail nearly as fast.

    Plus, attacks on the transportation net are by default attacks on energy and finished product production. if the user can't get them, they don't exist.

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