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The Most Decisive Battle of WWII - ETO

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  • Originally posted by 1979 View Post
    Hungsary, Bulgaria and Romania add close to another 30 divisions.

    Well, no.
    The only ones who got divisions were us (Romania ) about 12. Hungary and Bulgaria were using brigade size units. But no WP forces were alowed to cross our teritory, nor did we participate in any WP war games.
    Hungarian peoples Army (UVA) 1988

    1. 1st UVA Army HQ - located Szekes Fehervar, HU: all units are Cat B

    a. 11th UVA Tank Division - Tata, HU: see TO&E #5 with T-72, BMP-1, FUG-70, SA-6

    b. 4th UVA MR Division - Nyireg Haza, HU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BMP-1, FUG-70 SA-6

    c. 8th UVA MR Division - Zalaegerszeg, HU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BMP-1, FUG-70, SA-6

    d. 9th UVA MR Division - Kaposvar, HU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, FUG-70, S-60, D-30, D-20

    e. 15th UVA MR Division - Gyongyos, HU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, FUG-70, S-60, D-30, D-20

    f. 17th UVA MR Division - Kiskunfel, HU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, FUG-70, S-60, D-30, D-20

    Bulgarian Peoples Army (BKA) 1988

    b. 1st BKA Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Sofia, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BMP-1, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    c. 28th BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - near Sofia, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    c. 2nd BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Pazardzhik, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    d. 17th BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Stara Zagora, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    e. 19th BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Khaskovo, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    c. 3rd BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Shumen, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    d. 7th BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Burgas, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    e. 18th BKA Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Elkhovo, BU: see TO&E #4 with T-55, BTR-60, SA-6, D-30

    Bulgaria organized its tank units in Brigades, but its infantry in divisions.

    As for Romania's actions within the WP, the exostence of the units still had to br accounted for.

    Also I forgot 60 divisons worth of troops in the Lennigrad, Baltic and Belorussian MD.

    So even subtracting the Romanians thats still 140+ divisions NATO has to deal with.

    Comment


    • If you subtract the Romanians ( and possibly yugoslavia ) Bulgarian units have no way to reach Germany.
      Never mind the fact that a division (Cat C) has less manpower than a brigade or that they still use the t-55 in the late eighties and have no IFV regiments.
      Hungary
      HU: all units are Cat B

      it means that they are understrength in men and equipment.
      Last edited by 1979; 26 Sep 10,, 19:50.
      J'ai en marre.

      Comment


      • IIRC from an article read long ago we were off the NATO nuke target list after 1968.

        Our army,doctrine(entire people's war) and mobilization system were designed to fight a Pact invasion.Under no circumstances we would have fought NATO.Without us Bulgaria is next to being meaningless,crushed between Greece+ a US corp+2 Turkish armies.

        Anyway,Bulgaria,Hungary and USSR must leave a force to cover the border with us.So you probably can subtract a few more divisions.
        Those who know don't speak
        He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 1979 View Post
          If you subtract the Romanians ( and possibly yugoslavia ) Bulgarian units have no way to reach Germany.
          Never mind the fact that a division (Cat C) has less manpower than a brigade or that they still use the t-55 in the late eighties and have no IFV regiments.
          1. I did not count on the Yugoslavs. Now would Nicolae Ceausescu allow or would the Soviets want to move the the troops through Romania I do not know. I think if the Soviets brought enough pressure to bear they would get what they wanted.

          2. cat C divisions had smaller cadres only until mobalization and were not much different from most reserve units in the West. A T-55 in the 80's isn't the best choice, but it can still fight Pattons, AMX-30's and leopard 1's on fairly even terms during the day.

          Comment


          • Now would Nicolae Ceausescu allow or would the Soviets want to move the the troops through Romania I do not know.

            He was Kim Il-sung type paranoid, so no.
            J'ai en marre.

            Comment


            • I don't see the relevance of comparing NC with Kim in this case.Allowing Soviets in is not wise under any circumstances.Certainly after 1968.
              Those who know don't speak
              He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                I don't see the relevance of comparing NC with Kim in this case.Allowing Soviets in is not wise under any circumstances.Certainly after 1968.
                Regardless, the Soviets had a butt load of units they and the WP could send west. Although if Romania was anti-WP why was she part of it and why did the Soviets sell/give arms to a military who you say was focused on repelling the WP. These include Mig21, 23 and 29 fighters, T-72 tanks BMP-1 etc?

                Comment


                • Did some quick google-fu and it turns out the Romania of 1968 was rapidly changing by 1985 when NC was being bought off with Soviet economic supports.

                  "in 1985 Ceausescu dismissed Minister of Foreign Affairs Stefan Andrei and Minister of Defense Constantin Olteanu, who helped establish the country's independent policies and would have opposed closer Romanian involvement with the Warsaw Pact."

                  The Warsaw Pact

                  Comment


                  • I'm as guilty as the next but we're dangerously drifting away from the topic at hand.
                    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                      I'm as guilty as the next but we're dangerously drifting away from the topic at hand.
                      Agreed....but I do not share Z's admiration on the ability of the battalion welders, nor on success of REFORGER....and 24 ID was never a REFORGER unit....it was ALWAYS on the southern flank (think southern and eastern most NATO Ally at the time) or into Arabia along with the rest of XVIII Airborne Corps.
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • We've definetely misread the Soviets mid 80s on. They had no intentions of attacking West after that but instead would draw NATO into East Germany and counter-attack from the Polish border. Only thing was ... we've had no intentions of attacking East. I don't believe we even thought of it except in a counter-attack scenario.

                        It would really be a f_ucked up war with both sides waiting for the other to attack and asking, why aren't they doing what we predict them to do?
                        Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 27 Sep 10,, 15:04.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                          Agreed....but I do not share Z's admiration on the ability of the battalion welders, nor on success of REFORGER....and 24 ID was never a REFORGER unit....it was ALWAYS on the southern flank (think southern and eastern most NATO Ally at the time) or into Arabia along with the rest of XVIII Airborne Corps.
                          Point, I did not comment on Reforger except to list units that were likely to be deployed. XVIII might not have been offically slotted, but chances are they would have gone and gone early. They were after all quickly slotted for ODS, even if it was their area. They had the ability to deploy early and faster than III Corps. The limited rail facilties at hood would have slowed III Corps unless it was intended for war stocks already in Europe that may or may not ahve been pasted by Soviet rockets and frontal aviation.



                          Thats an Abrams pack, it would not take a welder long to fab up something to mate to the exhaist outlet and redirect it.

                          Comment


                          • 1. XVIII Corps had a different mission; III Corps went to Europe and fell in on POMCUS along with several other divisions which would fall under V & VII Corps. 101 AASLT MAY, and I stress MAY, have gone to Central Europe but not in most OPLANS.

                            Don't forget that NATO had a southern front as well.

                            2. I know what an M1 pack looks like.....seen a few in my day.

                            My point was battalion commanders did not have the authority to start ripping up their vehicles for field expediency; nor were the special skill sets universally present which would allow soldiers to accomplish that mission in MOPP IV as you suggest. Finally, decon after a persistent attack was a very deliberate process (even in a hasty decon situation). And nevere mind what the heat from an M1 pack would do to optics, seals and electronics on the deconned vehicles.

                            If we want to continue this discussion I recommend we move off of this thread and you can start it up in the land forces thread.
                            “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                            Mark Twain

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