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  • Originally posted by DRichards1968 View Post
    I don't think it was militarily justified to drop the atom bombs; the reason being that the Americans were able to destroy Japanese cities with purely conventional explosives (e.g. Tokyo in March 1945). With sufficiently intense conventional bombing, Japan would have surrendered anyway before the end of 1945.
    More people died in Tokyo than they did at Hiroshima and yet after Nagasaki, it took a Soviet invasion to finally convince Hirohito to give up. Do you actually think firebombing alone could have convinced Hirohito when everything else did not?

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    • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
      More people died in Tokyo than they did at Hiroshima and yet after Nagasaki, it took a Soviet invasion to finally convince Hirohito to give up. Do you actually think firebombing alone could have convinced Hirohito when everything else did not?

      I believe that in due course Japan would have broken. Even for Japanese there is only so much you can take before you have to throw in the towel. Maybe I'm wrong, but Hirohito would have intervened at some point.

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      • Look at it from Hirohito's PoV. The Allies, including the Chinese, especially the Chinese, are demanding Unconditional Surrender.

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        • Will China and Japan ever re-concile? If they ever were friends to begin with that is.

          I like Japan and I like China.

          Thinking about learning Japanese, but I think for my career learning the Afghani languages will better suit me (Pashtun)

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          • Not in our life times.

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            • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              All it took was a determined Emperor to surrender, even against a coup. By the same token, all it would have taken not to surrender was also a determined Emperor.
              The survey came to the conclusion that Hirohito would surrender before the invasion date.

              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
              After two nukes, it still took a Russian Army to destroy all Japanese hope.
              As the two events overlapped I guess we'll never know for sure, although Hirohito seemed to use the bombs as the catalyst in his 'surrender' speech.

              .....Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.....

              Doesn't actually use the word surrender anywhere in his speech. .........


              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

              How long did China lasted after 10 years of genocidic warfare?
              Not sure you can compare the circumstances of those two countries.

              And what would you do 'if' Japan didn't surrender, blockade and bombing, or invade?

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              • Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                The survey came to the conclusion that Hirohito would surrender before the invasion date.
                I'm sorry but the only evidence I have is Hirohito's own documents about his decision to surrender. I know the nukes and the Soviet invasion were evidence of it but I know of no survey that were included in his decision.

                In fact, I will go further, at no time was Hirohito ever exposed to the idea of unconditional surrender. The Imperial Japanese Empire, ie Tojo and his Staff, was determined to guarrantee Hirohito's Office ... with the life of Japan's population.

                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                As the two events overlapped I guess we'll never know for sure, although Hirohito seemed to use the bombs as the catalyst in his 'surrender' speech.
                Tokyo firebombing, two nukes and the man still waited. Whether the Soviet Invasion was the straw or the final hammer blow, it was without a doubt, that it was the final nail.

                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                .....Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.....
                Pure bullcrap as the man was trying to save his own ass. The reason why he never tried to negotiate a surrender before (come on, his chances died when Stalin marched into Berlin) was that he knew the Allies were seeking vengence. Hitler was never going to be allowed to live ... and neither was Hirohito.

                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                Doesn't actually use the word surrender anywhere in his speech. .........
                Did not mattered. The Japanese signed the Chinese Terms of Surrender.

                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                Not sure you can compare the circumstances of those two countries.
                You're missing the point. Who amongst the allies who did not have the right to demand the extermination of the Japnese Empire and by extension, the Japanse population.

                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                And what would you do 'if' Japan didn't surrender, blockade and bombing, or invade?
                3 Soviet and 5 Chinese Armies.
                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 01 Jan 09,, 06:52.

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                • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  I'm sorry but the only evidence I have is Hirohito's own documents about his decision to surrender. I know the nukes and the Soviet invasion were evidence of it but I know of no survey that were included in his decision.
                  The survey was done after the war.


                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  In fact, I will go further, at no time was Hirohito ever exposed to the idea of unconditional surrender. The Imperial Japanese Empire, ie Tojo and his Staff, was determined to guarrantee Hirohito's Office ... with the life of Japan's population..

                  Wiki...On July 26, 1945, the Allies issued the Potsdam Declaration demanding unconditional surrender. The Japanese government council, the Big Six, considered that option and recommended to the emperor that it be accepted only if one to three conditions were agreed, including a guarantee of the emperor's continued position in Japanese society.




                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

                  Pure bullcrap as the man was trying to save his own ass. The reason why he never tried to negotiate a surrender before (come on, his chances died when Stalin marched into Berlin) was that he knew the Allies were seeking vengence. Hitler was never going to be allowed to live ... and neither was Hirohito..
                  His chances died long before then.

                  Think it was April when he started to mention negotiations were necessary.

                  On June 22, the Emperor met his ministers, saying "I desire that concrete plans to end the war, unhampered by existing policy, be speedily studied and that efforts be made to implement them."

                  And he decided to surrender, knowing there was no guarantee of the throne, and that many of the Allies held him personally responsible for the war and wanted his head, yet he surrendered anyway.


                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

                  Did not mattered. The Japanese signed the Chinese Terms of Surrender.
                  Yep, I know it didn't matter, just mentioning how you can make a surrender speech without using the word surrender.

                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post

                  You're missing the point. Who amongst the allies who did not have the right to demand the extermination of the Japnese Empire and by extension, the Japanse population.
                  My point was that the Japanese were in a far worse position then China ever was, and no way could they [the Japanese] last years.

                  Extermination of the Empire, O.K, but except for perhaps a few extremely blood thirsty individuals, I doubt that many wanted the whole Japanese population exterminated.

                  Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                  3 Soviet and 5 Chinese Armies.
                  Not sure what you mean here.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                    In fact, I will go further, at no time was Hirohito ever exposed to the idea of unconditional surrender. The Imperial Japanese Empire, ie Tojo and his Staff, was determined to guarrantee Hirohito's Office ... with the life of Japan's population.
                    Just a small correction.

                    Tojo was overthrown from his multiple ministrial positions in the summer of '44, around the time Saipan fell to US forces. From summer '44 to August '45 three (IIRC) different cabinet came to power. Each successive cabinet having a more moderate look than that of Tojo (mostly naval officers ie Admiral Yonai, Admiral Suzuki).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DRichards1968 View Post
                      I don't think it was militarily justified to drop the atom bombs; the reason being that the Americans were able to destroy Japanese cities with purely conventional explosives (e.g. Tokyo in March 1945). With sufficiently intense conventional bombing, Japan would have surrendered anyway before the end of 1945.

                      I believe that the reason Truman was in a hurry is because he feared that the Soviets would attempt an invasion of Japan before the US forces were ready. So he decided that he needed a quick end to it regardless of the (enemy) human cost. I think that politically it was a shrewd decision, but from a humanitarian point of view utterly deplorable.

                      Why was it any more deplorable than firebombing? As OOE pointed out, more people died from the firebombing than from the atomic bombs. Had we fire bombed Hiroshima instead of using the atomic bomb, there is no reason to think the level of destruction would have been less.

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                      • Originally posted by Johnny W View Post
                        Why was it any more deplorable than firebombing? As OOE pointed out, more people died from the firebombing than from the atomic bombs. Had we fire bombed Hiroshima instead of using the atomic bomb, there is no reason to think the level of destruction would have been less.
                        Correct, but at least there would have been no radiation sickness. It is radioactive fallout that makes nuclear weapons so odious.

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                        • Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                          Look at it from Hirohito's PoV. The Allies, including the Chinese, especially the Chinese, are demanding Unconditional Surrender.
                          I do not believe Hirohito was unwilling to surrender unconditionally as long as some guarantees were put into place to ensure the survival of the Japanese people and the monarchy. In the end the Allies were willing to accept this anyway and Hirohito continued as head of state until his death forty years later.

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                          • Originally posted by Mobbme View Post
                            Will China and Japan ever re-concile? If they ever were friends to begin with that is.

                            I like Japan and I like China.

                            Thinking about learning Japanese, but I think for my career learning the Afghani languages will better suit me (Pashtun)
                            Both countries have a lot in common, but they have also been deadly rivals. It's a complex relationship and a bit similar to the one between Germany and Russia.

                            Unless Japan breaks with the USA I don't think there will be a full reconciliation between China and Japan. And this won't happen.

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                            • Originally posted by DRichards1968 View Post
                              Correct, but at least there would have been no radiation sickness. It is radioactive fallout that makes nuclear weapons so odious.


                              That's retrospective. There was very little known about the effects of radiation sickness at the time, hence the large numbers of people including the scientists exposed during later tests.
                              In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                              Leibniz

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                              • Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                The survey was done after the war.
                                Which supports my point that no one knew whether Japan wanted to surrender or not, not even Japan and hence, the very valid and very correct assumption that Japan was going to fight to the death.

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                Wiki...On July 26, 1945, the Allies issued the Potsdam Declaration demanding unconditional surrender. The Japanese government council, the Big Six, considered that option and recommended to the emperor that it be accepted only if one to three conditions were agreed, including a guarantee of the emperor's continued position in Japanese society.
                                By definition, that was not unconditional surrender.

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                His chances died long before then.

                                Think it was April when he started to mention negotiations were necessary.

                                On June 22, the Emperor met his ministers, saying "I desire that concrete plans to end the war, unhampered by existing policy, be speedily studied and that efforts be made to implement them."
                                ie, saving his own skin.

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                And he decided to surrender, knowing there was no guarantee of the throne, and that many of the Allies held him personally responsible for the war and wanted his head, yet he surrendered anyway.
                                Translation, when he knew he cannot save his own skin, he decided to save his honour.

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                Yep, I know it didn't matter, just mentioning how you can make a surrender speech without using the word surrender.
                                All you are showing me is that the man is more worried about his reputation than the well being of his people.

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                My point was that the Japanese were in a far worse position then China ever was, and no way could they [the Japanese] last years.
                                And my point is that Hirohito was willing to burn the last baby to save his reputation.

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                Extermination of the Empire, O.K, but except for perhaps a few extremely blood thirsty individuals, I doubt that many wanted the whole Japanese population exterminated.
                                You're sh!tting me! Nanking anyone? And do you actually think that Stalin cared about the Japanese population? How many Berlins was he willing to do on Japan?

                                Originally posted by ANZAC View Post
                                Not sure what you mean here.
                                There were eight armies numbering over 2 million men willing to do a Genghis Khan on Japan.

                                Originally posted by DRichards1968 View Post
                                I do not believe Hirohito was unwilling to surrender unconditionally as long as some guarantees were put into place to ensure the survival of the Japanese people and the monarchy. In the end the Allies were willing to accept this anyway and Hirohito continued as head of state until his death forty years later.
                                Nanking.
                                Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 02 Jan 09,, 05:49.

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