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What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

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  • Originally posted by GSpot View Post
    Yeah man, but Poppins could fly with that badass umbrella. Not a fair comparison.
    LOL!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
      Killing is the business of war. I see little reason to eff around.
      Killing is the business of war, but you and I draw different distinctions as to "who" is a legitimate target. Especially today.
      Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
      I mean, if you're really serious....the more brutal it is, the quicker it will end, the less frequently it will be engaged in.
      Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. Hitler made that mistake when he brutalized Ukrainians in WW2.
      Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
      JOKER: "How do you shoot women, and children?"
      MARINE DOOR GUNNER: "Easy, just don't lead 'em so much!"
      And I think this scene in Full Metal Jacket is attempting to describe the horror of war -- AND the despicable acts of that American traitor shooting the machine gun from the helicopter, and had I been there, I'd have thrown his ass out of the helicopter, or at least attempted to restrain him during the ride, then inform the MPs.

      During the Mai Lai massacre, Hugh Thompson, Jr. was an American patriot.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson%2C_Jr.

      Thompson: Let's get these people out of this bunker and get 'em out of here.

      Brooks: We'll get 'em out with hand grenades.

      Thompson: I can do better than that. Keep your people in place. My guns are on you.


      Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
      The germans unconditional surrender is good enough, even for a bastard like me. But the japs...they've never really appologized, and they used to literally eat our POWS among other unbelieveably hideous acts, like, oh....the BATAAN DEATH MARCH or RAPE OF NANKING.
      Once again you're holding all members of a particular ethnic group guilty. 21 year old female college students in Tokyo today aren't "guilty", despite what happened in Nanking. Yes Japan hasn't apologized to the satisfaction of many, and textbooks often portray the war as "a defensive war" "ending European colonization" that sort of thing. It needs to say more yes. But it HAS DEFINITELY apologized countless times -- perhaps not specific enough.

      Here's an excerpt from Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi last year:

      In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations.
      Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility.
      And with feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind, Japan has resolutely maintained, consistently since the end of World War II, never turning into a military power but an economic power, its principle of resolving all matters by peaceful means, without recourse to the use of force.


      It's done more apologizing than Russia's done that's for sure. It's also one hell of a good ally, maybe our most important on the planet, especially with the Rise of neighboring China




      Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
      You'd be fine with killing them by accident and calling it 'collateral damage'.
      At least i have the balls to tell them i meant it.
      That's right, I'm ok with collateral damage, war is hell after all. I want the destruction of the Japanese military war machine, and to do that there's going to be lots of Japanese casualties. So I "meant it" too. But to throw out the Geneva convention, spit on American values by endorsing the killing of all captured enemy soldiers is an entirely different matter.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by GSpot View Post
        I read that current Japanese textbooks dont even mention those atrocities. It is indeed a nasty revision of history.
        All the same, I think its a small price to pay for ending the war earlier and sparing goodness knows how many American and Japanese lives. While Im sure the counterargument is that another war will result from our weak-willed resolution of the conflict, I guess only time will tell.
        Ending a war early solely for the purpose of ending it early is counter-productive.

        Notice in germany it's illegal to deny the holocaust or be a nazi.

        Yet in Japan, where we eased off with the finish line in sight, there are still quite a lot of appologists and defenders of the old Japanese Empire and it's murdering leader.

        As i say, we should've kept it going with the Japanese until they agreed to no conditions and a COMPLETE AND FULL ACCOUNTING OF THEIR WARCRIMES.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mick in England View Post
          ----------------------------


          I know absolutely zilch mate, that's why I simply quote from books, so take it up with the authors not me ;)
          For the record Mick, the "Mate" is a retired Luitenant Colonel.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            Killing is the business of war, but you and I draw different distinctions as to "who" is a legitimate target. Especially today.
            The only thing you know about war is what you see on Tee-Vee.

            Also, the date or day of the week is irrelevant wrt the proper implementation of war.

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. Hitler made that mistake when he brutalized Ukrainians in WW2.
            His mistake was biting off more than he could chew. And that extends far beyond the Ukraine.

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            And I think this scene in Full Metal Jacket is attempting to describe the horror of war -- AND the despicable acts of that American traitor shooting the machine gun from the helicopter, and had I been there, I'd have thrown his ass out of the helicopter, or at least attempted to restrain him during the ride, then inform the MPs.

            During the Mai Lai massacre, Hugh Thompson, Jr. was an American patriot.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson%2C_Jr.

            Thompson: Let's get these people out of this bunker and get 'em out of here.

            Brooks: We'll get 'em out with hand grenades.

            Thompson: I can do better than that. Keep your people in place. My guns are on you.
            Well i see morbid military humor is beyond your comprehension. I guess they don't cover that on Tee Vee?


            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            Once again you're holding all members of a particular ethnic group guilty.
            Nope, not ethnic group, but rather a nationality.


            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            21 year old female college students in Tokyo today aren't "guilty", despite what happened in Nanking.
            Did i say anything about killing any 21 year old Japanese college students today? Well?

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            Yes Japan hasn't apologized to the satisfaction of many, and textbooks often portray the war as "a defensive war" "ending European colonization" that sort of thing. It needs to say more yes. But it HAS DEFINITELY apologized countless times -- perhaps not specific enough.
            Show me where they appologized for the canabilization of US POWs. In specific print. Also show me where they specifically appologized for the Bataan Death March, or the experimentations performed on conscious US GIs.

            They havnt.

            Here's an excerpt from Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi last year:

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations.
            Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility.

            A lie. They do not sqaurely face them. They gloss over and deny them in their history books. That 'apology' is a lie.

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            And with feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind, Japan has resolutely maintained, consistently since the end of World War II, never turning into a military power but an economic power, its principle of resolving all matters by peaceful means, without recourse to the use of force.
            Probably because we so utterly defeated them that we DENIED them the ability to be an offensive force. Had we just gone a bit further, we'd have also gotten our unconditional surrender and a full accounting and admission of guilt from them.(and oh yeah, reparations)

            But we eased off too soon.

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            It's done more apologizing than Russia's done that's for sure. It's also one hell of a good ally, maybe our most important on the planet, especially with the Rise of neighboring China
            Japan has been a Vassal, not an ally. And a conquered vassal, at that.

            Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
            That's right, I'm ok with collateral damage, war is hell after all. I want the destruction of the Japanese military war machine, and to do that there's going to be lots of Japanese casualties. So I "meant it" too. But to throw out the Geneva convention, spit on American values by endorsing the killing of all captured enemy soldiers is an entirely different matter.
            I never signed the geneva accords(nor would i). And know what, the US is not a signatory to most of them either. We merely practice them because it's the PC thing to do in today's political climate.

            Not because we're 'good guys'.

            Good guys do not napalm villages and drop satellite guided bombs in downtown baghdad. Nor do they fire-bomb entire cities or nuke other cities. Good guys also do not instigate uprisings and then abandon a whole populace to it's doom. Good guys likewise do not train foriegn fighters, provide them with arms and landing craft, and a promise to provide air support, then leave them dangling in the wind when the time comes. Good guys do not turn down the requests of allies to provide B-29 carpet bombing strikes when they're about to lose their entire force at Dien Bien Phu. Good guys CERTAINLY do not murder a whole people and take their lands either.

            Just because we were "right" in WWII(or other times) does not mean we were "good".

            You are simply deluding yourself into assigning us some high and mighty role of global righteousness. The fact is, the US is looking out for #1....us, and is only 'nice' when it suits us.

            As it should be.

            War is about killing. The more you do, the quicker it ends.

            As the contemptuous Bertrand Russel so famously opined, "War is about who's right, it's about who's left."
            Last edited by Bill; 16 Oct 06,, 18:45.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mick in England View Post
              *****-footing costs lives, won't the brass ever learn?..
              EDIT - Why have asterisks appeared above?
              You've tripped the naughty word censor.

              Next time, just spell it "pussyfooting" without the dash ;)
              “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
              ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

              Comment


              • Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                For the record Mick, the "Mate" is a retired Luitenant Colonel.


                You mean "Officer of Engineers"?
                Okay so he knows how to kick Zulu butt..

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mick in England View Post
                  You mean "Officer of Engineers"?
                  Okay so he knows how to kick Zulu butt..
                  Word of advice, quit disrespecting Officer of Engineers please ;)
                  “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                  ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    Word of advice, quit disrespecting Officer of Engineers please ;)


                    But he disrespected me first, he said I like to think I know better than anybody else!
                    If people fire at me, I fire back ;)
                    Incidentally I've been shot at - and hit - in real life, but that's another story..

                    Comment


                    • I love that movie.(Zulu).

                      "Mocking us? Oh heavens no good chap, they're SALUTING us!"
                      ~Boer Advisor to Michael Cain

                      Comment


                      • Oh, get off your high horse. That comment was not addressed to you. You responded to it. That's your problem. Like hell I'm going to believe you can do better than Bradley.

                        Comment


                        • Zulu butt?

                          Originally posted by Mick in England View Post
                          You mean "Officer of Engineers"?
                          Okay so he knows how to kick Zulu butt..
                          No the Colonel is just a "bit" more accomplished than that. I on the other hand DO know how to kick Angolan, Botswanan, Cuban, Mozambiqean, Nicaraguan, Portugese,Tanzinian, Swazi, Ugandan, Zambian, Zimbabwean AND Zulu butt.
                          Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
                          (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sappersgt View Post
                            No the Colonel is just a "bit" more accomplished than that. I on the other hand DO know how to kick Angolan, Botswanan, Cuban, Mozambiqean, Nicaraguan, Portugese,Tanzinian, Swazi, Ugandan, Zambian, Zimbabwean AND Zulu butt.
                            That must have been a hell of a picnic.
                            “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
                            ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by sappersgt View Post
                              No the Colonel is just a "bit" more accomplished than that. I on the other hand DO know how to kick Angolan, Botswanan, Cuban, Mozambiqean, Nicaraguan, Portugese,Tanzinian, Swazi, Ugandan, Zambian, Zimbabwean AND Zulu butt.
                              I thought you also tangled with Soviet and Chinese advisors.

                              Comment


                              • Indeed. Nasty little wars they have down there.
                                "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

                                Comment

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