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What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

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  • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
    Germany has and does bear that responsibility, and it does so to the satisfaction of the vast majority of the world -- including Israel, of which Germany happens to be Israels best ally in Europe.

    But I'm wondering how this responsibility applies to German POWs? should we have killed them upon capturing them? Just trying to get clarification.
    Not at all. I'm just never satisfied to let an argument of equivalence stand.

    -dale

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    • So you're saying that we didn't deserve to be mistreated, but the Germans did? I just need a bit of clarification.
      "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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      • Originally posted by leibstandarte10 View Post
        So you're saying that we didn't deserve to be mistreated, but the Germans did? I just need a bit of clarification.
        Nope. Note the line I pulled out to reply to:

        So both sides are guilty of these acts. Such as what happens in war.
        I decry simple summations like this. If person A inappropriately touches someone's child, and person B punches him, and A punches B back, and B kicks A in the scrote, and A kicks B back in the scrote, they are in fact both guilty of "low blows", of course, and such things may happen in intense fights, of course, but I don't want to ignore the fact that none of that would have happened without the initial violation.

        And I will say that in THAT context I feel a little less sorry for German prisoners who were treated unfairly than for Allied prisoners who were treated unfairly.

        -dale

        Comment


        • Originally posted by dalem View Post
          Not at all. I'm just never satisfied to let an argument of equivalence stand.

          -dale
          I agree. It's a pointless, historically deficient cliche (no, I can't be bothered with the acute accent) which attempts to rescue a certain side's reputation through a cherry-picking technicality.

          Yes, both sides committed crimes - but that statement belies the difference in scale and frequency. The two sets of crimes are not in the same moral ballpark, tournament or league, but certainly in the same sport. Still, you wouldn't compare 3rd Division Barnet FC with Premiership Arsenal, now, would you?

          The disparity in behaviour leads an unbiased observer to judge America to be 'rather good' and Germany to be 'very, very bad'. Of course, balance is always a good thing and one should refrain from "America = fantastic" and "Germany = baby-boiling evil," lest you be logically contradicted, but when people refute this, they hinge everything on a technicality of speech, where people hyperbolise to enhance the distinction.

          By restricting discussion of the scale and frequency, you also invite the judgment "No Sh-t, Sherlock! Pointless comment!" upon the "both sides..." platitude.
          Last edited by HistoricalDavid; 13 Oct 06,, 18:00.
          HD Ready?

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          • Originally posted by dalem View Post
            Nope. Note the line I pulled out to reply to:



            I decry simple summations like this. If person A inappropriately touches someone's child, and person B punches him, and A punches B back, and B kicks A in the scrote, and A kicks B back in the scrote, they are in fact both guilty of "low blows", of course, and such things may happen in intense fights, of course, but I don't want to ignore the fact that none of that would have happened without the initial violation.

            And I will say that in THAT context I feel a little less sorry for German prisoners who were treated unfairly than for Allied prisoners who were treated unfairly.

            -dale
            I don't think some 17 year old farm boy drafted at gunpoint into the Wehrmacht in 1945, and who is then captured, deserves mistreatment more than for any American POW -- provided he didn't commit atrocities. He's not "person A" in this sense and he didn't touch anyone's "child" either. Other Germans did. It might sound cliche, but America has a responsibility to make that distinction, and it does.

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            • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
              I don't think some 17 year old farm boy drafted at gunpoint into the Wehrmacht in 1945, and who is then captured, deserves mistreatment more than for any American POW -- provided he didn't commit atrocities. He's not "person A" in this sense and he didn't touch
              He may not deserve it personally, he's basically paying for the past orders of his high command and the past behaviors of his fellow Germans.

              As it's been said "That's war".
              “Never let yourself be persuaded that any one Great Man, any one leader, is necessary to the salvation of America. When America consists of one leader and 158 million followers, it will no longer be America.”
              ― Dwight D. Eisenhower

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              • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                He may not deserve it personally, he's basically paying for the past orders of his high command and the past behaviors of his fellow Germans.

                As it's been said "That's war".
                Yes, that often is war, although American military doctrine specifically denounces it. To condone "revenge" killings on POWs is highly damaging to American values, American culture -- the idea of liberty and humanity etc etc.
                "Winking" or turning a blind eye to atrocities is in effect, condoning those atrocities.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by dalem View Post
                  Nope. Note the line I pulled out to reply to:



                  I decry simple summations like this. If person A inappropriately touches someone's child, and person B punches him, and A punches B back, and B kicks A in the scrote, and A kicks B back in the scrote, they are in fact both guilty of "low blows", of course, and such things may happen in intense fights, of course, but I don't want to ignore the fact that none of that would have happened without the initial violation.

                  And I will say that in THAT context I feel a little less sorry for German prisoners who were treated unfairly than for Allied prisoners who were treated unfairly.

                  -dale
                  I agree with you on that. But I still think it's a little above us to stoop down to that level of depravity. Hopefully we won't be put into a situation to repeat our errors.
                  "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                    I don't think some 17 year old farm boy drafted at gunpoint into the Wehrmacht in 1945, and who is then captured, deserves mistreatment more than for any American POW -- provided he didn't commit atrocities. He's not "person A" in this sense and he didn't touch anyone's "child" either. Other Germans did. It might sound cliche, but America has a responsibility to make that distinction, and it does.
                    Fine, I didn't say he did deserve mistreatment. I said that I feel a little less sorry for him than I would others if he does get mistreated, simply because of the side, and therefore the cause, that he served.

                    -dale

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by leibstandarte10 View Post
                      I strongly disagree, but hey, it's your opinion. However, the old adage "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind.
                      Sure it does, or we would not punish criminals.

                      Cause putting someone in a cage(or executing them), is quite wrong.

                      And im just fine with that.

                      Originally posted by troung View Post
                      Or in France (spit)
                      If i ever stage a coup, you are definitely going to be in my cabinet, oh Troung, my faithful disciple and friend.

                      Originally posted by leibstandarte10 View Post
                      Hopefully the scale of the slaughter will never be repeated.
                      I disagree.

                      This entire notion of "Clean" war has been the single worst enabler of unjustified half-assed limited wars that has ever come down the pike.

                      If you pull a gun, then shoot to kill, or do not shoot at all. Shooting to wound is just plain stupid, and results in the target(and others) holding a grudge for a very long time.

                      Originally posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
                      The disparity in behaviour leads an unbiased observer to judge America to be 'rather good' and Germany to be 'very, very bad'. Of course, balance is always a good thing and one should refrain from "America = fantastic" and "Germany = baby-boiling evil," lest you be logically contradicted, but when people refute this, they hinge everything on a technicality of speech, where people hyperbolise to enhance the distinction.
                      I would submit that Germany WAS (jewish) baby-boiling evil.

                      Just ask any of the countless child victims of the Angel of Death.

                      The Germans are lucky we left any of them alive....and so are the Japs.

                      Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                      I don't think some 17 year old farm boy drafted at gunpoint into the Wehrmacht in 1945, and who is then captured, deserves mistreatment more than for any American POW -- provided he didn't commit atrocities. He's not "person A" in this sense and he didn't touch anyone's "child" either. Other Germans did. It might sound cliche, but America has a responsibility to make that distinction, and it does.
                      He DOES deserve mistreatment for not deserting, or trying to emmigrate, or actively resisting the Nazis or the seat of power.

                      That 17 year old farm boy is every bit as guilty as the military and the nation that all his hard work and sweat fed for as long as he farmed to- in effect- fed the nazis.

                      Give me a pistol and orders, and i'd gladly shoot that 17yo "innocent" farm boy in the face- without so much as a second thought.

                      I swear, i just dont understand some of you people...

                      Originally posted by Goatboy View Post
                      Yes, that often is war, although American military doctrine specifically denounces it. To condone "revenge" killings on POWs is highly damaging to American values, American culture -- the idea of liberty and humanity etc etc.
                      "Winking" or turning a blind eye to atrocities is in effect, condoning those atrocities.
                      Horseshiit.

                      You don't want me to kill your farmers? DONT EFFING ATTACK MY COUNTRY!

                      Simple as simple can be.

                      Originally posted by leibstandarte10 View Post
                      I agree with you on that. But I still think it's a little above us to stoop down to that level of depravity. Hopefully we won't be put into a situation to repeat our errors.
                      It is NO error to seek revenge or retribution, aka, "Justice."

                      Originally posted by dalem View Post
                      Fine, I didn't say he did deserve mistreatment. I said that I feel a little less sorry for him than I would others if he does get mistreated, simply because of the side, and therefore the cause, that he served.
                      Not only does he DESERVE mistreatment, but his home should be fire-bombed and his family burned to a crisp in the firestorm that follows.

                      Anyone who does not like my views on "Justice", i highly reccomend you never wrong me.
                      Last edited by Bill; 15 Oct 06,, 23:14.

                      Comment


                      • But, what do you really mean?

                        Snipe,
                        You should stop with the ambiguous, wishy washy posts. Why don't you stop sugar coating everything and tell us how you really feel!
                        Reddite igitur quae sunt Caesaris Caesari et quae sunt Dei Deo
                        (Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                          Scenario:

                          VE day. Germany is defeated. The Japanese are all but.

                          Patton gets his wish and a war with the Red Army starts.

                          How does it play out?

                          1 - Pres Truman tells Russia to withdraw to her pre-war borders
                          2 - Stalin drags his feet
                          3 - B-29 fleet deployed in Europe
                          4 - Stalin thinks "they'd never nuke us....would they..."
                          5 - Western Allies issue ultimatum to Stalin - "withdraw or face the consequences"
                          6 - Stalin chickens and withdraws...

                          Sadly the above scenario never happened, it was the West that chickened, thereby condemning half of Europe to Soviet occupation for the next 50 years..

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post

                            This entire notion of "Clean" war has been the single worst enabler of unjustified half-assed limited wars that has ever come down the pike.
                            Are you saying that ANY war the United States is involved in REQUIRES us to try to kill every single living soul of that country? Vast fleets of helicopters roaming the North Vietnamese countryside and shooting ALL humans they can find? (I'm responding to your "You don't want me to kill your farmers? DONT EFFING ATTACK MY COUNTRY!" comment.)

                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            The Germans are lucky we left any of them alive....and so are the Japs.
                            If you had the power to go back in time, and had the power to influence events, would you then make the decision to kill all the Germans and Japanese?, just curious.


                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            Give me a pistol and orders, and i'd gladly shoot that 17yo "innocent" farm boy in the face- without so much as a second thought.
                            And his parents, and his little baby, and his one legged uncle, and apparently anyone else in his house.

                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            I swear, i just dont understand some of you people...
                            It's not exactly military doctrine is it? Certainly the idea that "the penalty for being German is death" is extremely fringe, and always has been.



                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            It is NO error to seek revenge or retribution, aka, "Justice."
                            Your version of justice perhaps. The "justice" you're proposing is the very thing that destroys nations, such as ours. Would the US have been the beacon of liberty during the cold war had we systematically exterminated anyone with a German accent in 1945?

                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            Not only does he DESERVE mistreatment, but his home should be fire-bombed and his family burned to a crisp in the firestorm that follows.

                            I'd rather America didn't become that which it fought so hard to defeat. My father was born in Germany in 1942, I'm glad he avoided "justice", for obvious reasons lol.

                            Do you dislike modern, individual Germans and Japanese because of the sins of their grandfathers? just curious

                            Originally posted by M21Sniper View Post
                            Anyone who does not like my views on "Justice", i highly reccomend you never wrong me.
                            I hope denouncing some of your arguments doesn't constitute being wronged :P
                            Last edited by Goatboy; 16 Oct 06,, 06:02.

                            Comment


                            • It's called TOTAL WAR, a concept pioneered by Marshal Kutuzov, perfected by Generals Grant and Sherman, and mastered by Marshal Zuhkov.
                              Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 16 Oct 06,, 03:55.

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                              • He DOES deserve mistreatment for not deserting, or trying to emmigrate, or actively resisting the Nazis or the seat of power.

                                That 17 year old farm boy is every bit as guilty as the military and the nation that all his hard work and sweat fed for as long as he farmed to- in effect- fed the nazis.

                                Give me a pistol and orders, and i'd gladly shoot that 17yo "innocent" farm boy in the face- without so much as a second thought.

                                I swear, i just dont understand some of you people...
                                Wow, that was a fine, slightly warped statement. I don't think I understand you either.

                                But, according to your statement, how is not also YOUR responsibility to desert if you received orders to murder a German prisoner, since it is morally wrong? Your statement contradicts itself.
                                Last edited by leib10; 16 Oct 06,, 05:36.
                                "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

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