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  • Civil War still divides Americans

    Civil War still divides Americans – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

    Civil War still divides Americans
    By: CNN Political Unit

    Washington (CNN) - It has been 150 years since the Civil War began with the first shots at Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861, and in some respects views of the Confederacy and the role that slavery played in the events of 1861 still divide the public, according to a new national poll.

    In the CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll released Tuesday, roughly one in four Americans said they sympathize more with the Confederacy than the Union, a figure that rises to nearly four in ten among white Southerners.

    When asked the reason behind the Civil War, whether it was fought over slavery or states' rights, 52 percent of all Americas said the leaders of the Confederacy seceded to keep slavery legal in their state, but a sizeable 42 percent minority said slavery was not the main reason why those states seceded.

    "The results of that question show that there are still racial, political and geographic divisions over the Civil War that still exists a century and a half later," CNN Polling Director Holland Keating said.

    When broken down by political party, most Democrats said southern states seceded over slavery, independents were split and most Republicans said slavery was not the main reason that Confederate states left the Union.

    Republicans were also most likely to say they admired the leaders of the southern states during the Civil War, with eight in 10 Republicans expressing admiration for the leaders in the South, virtually identical to the 79 percent of Republicans who admired the northern leaders during the Civil War.

    The survey polled 824 adults via telephone between April 9 and April 10. The poll had a sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

  • #2
    Sir,don't you have a feeling of deja vu?
    Those who know don't speak
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Mihais View Post
      Sir,don't you have a feeling of deja vu?
      Even in the south it is a minority of whites and a smaller minority of total populations. The fact is the war had a huge price but left a great nation in it's wake that would not of come to exist otherwise.
      Where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.
      ~Ronald Reagan

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      • #4
        One of the things that amuse me most about white Americans in particular who still have deep feelings about the ACW is the overlap between them & people who tell foreigners to 'get over' violent American interventions or serious interference with internal politics that are often within the memory of most WABbers. ;)
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
          One of the things that amuse me most about white Americans in particular who still have deep feelings about the ACW is the overlap between them & people who tell foreigners to 'get over' violent American interventions or serious interference with internal politics that are often within the memory of most WABbers. ;)
          Can I tell my Muslim debate opponents on other forums to "get over" the Crusades? It's amazing how far back people will grasp at offenses, real or imagined. ;)

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          • #6
            You could,but its better to ask them to apologize for the conquest of the Roman ME (and the elimination of most of Christendom there)as well as most of the Balkans ans S Spain.Also let's not forget the Barbary Pirates and the millions enslaved.

            People tell me that I have the memory of an elephant .I'm also polite,I always tell people:you first''.
            Those who know don't speak
            He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
              You could,but its better to ask them to apologize for the conquest of the Roman ME (and the elimination of most of Christendom there)as well as most of the Balkans ans S Spain.Also let's not forget the Barbary Pirates and the millions enslaved.

              People tell me that I have the memory of an elephant .I'm also polite,I always tell people:you first''.
              And the destruction of Classical Persia, the introduction of black African slavery on the globals tage, and the stupidity and greed of Ala ad-Did Muhammed.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                One of the things that amuse me most about white Americans in particular who still have deep feelings about the ACW is the overlap between them & people who tell foreigners to 'get over' violent American interventions or serious interference with internal politics that are often within the memory of most WABbers. ;)
                You've got a point there. Although I am one of those with deep feelings, I don't think I am one to tell others to get over it. The War btwn the states was recent though in historical terms. Some of the very old grudges mentioned I don't think matter anymore, as will the War btwn the states when all us dumb ol southern white people are gone......along with all the other freedoms our country currently enjoys(has left anyway).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shek View Post
                  url=http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com
                  Thoughts, comments, Maj?

                  My friend in Memphis sent me this story a few days ago, you beat me to posting it.

                  I think it is quite accurate.
                  Last edited by Blue; 14 Apr 11,, 05:35.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chogy View Post
                    Can I tell my Muslim debate opponents on other forums to "get over" the Crusades? It's amazing how far back people will grasp at offenses, real or imagined. ;)
                    Please do.

                    The fact that an event has ongoing consequences doesn't give people an excuse to get emotional about it. It especially doesn't give them an excuse to use it to justify or excuse bad behavour. I can feel horror or anger that my people were invaded & brutalized by Cromwell or left to die in the hundreds of thousands in the potato famine, but those feelings are my own mental construct & no more valid than I might feel about the victims of Genghis Khan, Cortez, Pappenheim or Shaka. Once we can no longer interact with those involved events belong in books. That doesn't mean they are no longer important or that we should no longer care, but that how much we care needs to have sensible limits.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                      You've got a point there. Although I am one of those with deep feelings, I don't think I am one to tell others to get over it. The War btwn the states was recent though in historical terms. Some of the very old grudges mentioned I don't think matter anymore, as will the War btwn the states when all us dumb ol southern white people are gone......along with all the other freedoms our country currently enjoys(has left anyway).
                      Eric,

                      We may have different ideas of 'recent', or at least different ideas of its significance. I firmly believe that history we can no longer interact with needs to be drained of emotion as a wound is drained of pus. The failure to do so leads to the same result in both cases - toxicity. As an historian I am a firm believer in remembering, learning from & even engaging with the past, but I am also a firm believer in limits. Past IS past. It is important to understand it, re-examine it, celebrate it & most importantly get it right, but it is also important not to drag it constantly into the present. Santayana famously observed that 'those who cannot remember the past are condemned to relive it'. I would propose the addendum that those who cannot exit the past are condemned to constantly poison the present. People must understant their history, but more importantly, they must understand that it is history.
                      sigpic

                      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                        Eric,

                        We may have different ideas of 'recent', or at least different ideas of its significance. I firmly believe that history we can no longer interact with needs to be drained of emotion as a wound is drained of pus. The failure to do so leads to the same result in both cases - toxicity. As an historian I am a firm believer in remembering, learning from & even engaging with the past, but I am also a firm believer in limits. Past IS past. It is important to understand it, re-examine it, celebrate it & most importantly get it right, but it is also important not to drag it constantly into the present. Santayana famously observed that 'those who cannot remember the past are condemned to relive it'. I would propose the addendum that those who cannot exit the past are condemned to constantly poison the present. People must understant their history, but more importantly, they must understand that it is history.
                        Great post BF. Do you think it is correct for our Leaders to apologize for the wrong doings of our forefathers?

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                        • #13
                          Past becomes past when the fundamental causes cease to exist.Roman conquest of Greece or the wars between nomad tribes of the steppes are no longer relevant because there are no longer events caused by them.The crusades and the rest were unimportant for several hundreds of years because there was no ongoing conflict between the Muslim world and the West.Now there is a nascent Muslim world claiming its place under the sun,like it was the case before the rise of the West.In broad terms,both them and us are descendants of those who fought the crusades and the earlier jihhads,both biologically and in the sphere of ideas.Much has changed ,of course,but not all.To suggest that people should not think in emotional terms about events in the past linked to present ones is not feasible in the real world.

                          Sgt.,if I get you right,you think there is a connection between current efforts to curtail the attacks on freedom with those 150 years ago.Same broad ideals(the details differ of course),same men.
                          On another similar issue,for example,if someone thinks Poland will not look with dread at any close relations between Russia and Germany is a fool's fool.They got burned twice in 200 years.Of course Koszciusko,Poniatowsky,Catherine the Great,Hitler are all dead,as well those contemporary with them.No emotions should be involved,yet geopolitics haven't changed THAT much.Past is present and it will be that way until another force changes the paradigm .
                          Those who know don't speak
                          He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                            Great post BF. Do you think it is correct for our Leaders to apologize for the wrong doings of our forefathers?
                            To a point Dave. There are a lot of variables. I think it can be argued that if there is institutional continuity, a serious wrong & no previous apology then it can make sense - especially it can ease genuine pain. Even when the event is far distant (England & slavery for instance) there can be some value in admitting the commission of a great wrong & apologizing. Words cost little & they can be a way of cutting adrift the past rather than reviving it. Just as some people cling too much to the past, others dispatch inconvenient pasts with unseemly haste (japan & WW2, Europe's brutal imperialism). Sometimes an apology is a useful way to remember.

                            I don't think such an admission brands the present society as 'guilty' or necessarily commits it to reparations or compensation of some sort. Compensation may be appropriate if victims are still alive, or perhaps beyond (thinking here of return of stolen property, land etc), but that is case by case.
                            sigpic

                            Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mihais View Post
                              Past becomes past when the fundamental causes cease to exist.Roman conquest of Greece or the wars between nomad tribes of the steppes are no longer relevant because there are no longer events caused by them.The crusades and the rest were unimportant for several hundreds of years because there was no ongoing conflict between the Muslim world and the West.Now there is a nascent Muslim world claiming its place under the sun,like it was the case before the rise of the West.In broad terms,both them and us are descendants of those who fought the crusades and the earlier jihhads,both biologically and in the sphere of ideas.Much has changed ,of course,but not all.To suggest that people should not think in emotional terms about events in the past linked to present ones is not feasible in the real world.
                              Mihais, the Ottoman Empire had muslim religion and occupied much of todays hardcore Muslim countries. Tell me for which several hundreds of years you mean? They were pushed back from the Balcans almost a century ago, they were here for ~5 centuries before that, having tit for tat with Austrians every couple of decades. Oh, and they came here after the crusades escorting the crusaders home

                              On another similar issue,for example,if someone thinks Poland will not look with dread at any close relations between Russia and Germany is a fool's fool.They got burned twice in 200 years.Of course Koszciusko,Poniatowsky,Catherine the Great,Hitler are all dead,as well those contemporary with them.No emotions should be involved,yet geopolitics haven't changed THAT much.Past is present and it will be that way until another force changes the paradigm.
                              Is there any particular reason the Polish should be uneasy? Or anyone else in Europe for that matter. We all have some things that are not settled with the past.

                              Back to the ACW polls, I think it's kinda expected. It's still fresh 150 in terms of history means nothing. And also it depends how do you ask the questions.

                              From a totally ignorant-on-the-subject pov I would answer that I fency the South (for their flag) and that the war was not about the human right or slavery, but purely for $$$ as all the other wars. What would that mean?
                              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

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