Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The ACW and Reconstruction

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shek
    replied

    Last edited by Shek; 17 Dec 09,, 04:19.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shek
    replied

    Last edited by Shek; 16 Dec 09,, 02:58.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    data from my survey of freshmen in the schools remedial program.

    Note= anyone who was not white or black under 25 and not paying in state tuition was excluded. I also am rounding percentages to nearest whole number for this post. The sample size is 150 students.

    Demographics

    White 46%
    black 52%
    male 44%
    female 56%

    rural 31%
    urban 40%
    Suburban 28%

    note- whites are the majority in suburban neighborhoods but a minority in the sample I expected suburban to be lowest.

    Central Arkansas 59%

    Southern and NE Arkansas (black belt and delta) 32%

    Northern/NW/W Arkansas 9% (white belt)

    Economics

    Lower class 14%
    Middle class 79%
    Upper class 7%
    family income $0-25,000 30%
    family income$25,001-49,999 32%
    family income $50,000+ 36%
    family owns home 73%
    family does not own home 27%
    on scholarship 17%
    family paying tuition 20%
    grants and loans 60%
    family could afford college placement test tutoring 26%

    Note- notice the different in perception of social class, high number reporting middle class and home ownership but very low income reports, and low family support for tuition and tutoring.

    Social

    Positive social engagement (clubs, church, volunteerism etc)

    Church 84%
    club/organization (non sports) 61%
    Volunteerism 45%
    organized sports 48%
    both biological parents at home 51%
    One parent plus a step parent 13%
    Has a mentor 47%
    someone close to them with a 4yr degree 58%
    someone close to them with an advanced degree 36%
    culturally diverse group of friends 26%

    Note- The kids seem socially involved, but culturally limited.

    Negative social engagement

    someone close to them incarcerated 27%
    someone close to them a victim of violent crime 59%
    someone close to them arrested 71%
    someone close to them using drugs 71%
    someone close to them who is a high school dropout 67%
    witnessed discrimination 75%
    someone close to them using hard drugs 27%
    culturally closed group of friends 73%

    Note- The kids report high levels of social disruption and are culturally isolated.

    Prior educational experiences


    No computer access at all 9%
    Computer access limited 24%
    No internet access at all 4%
    Limited internet access 18%
    late class registration (June, July, August) 88%
    read for fun 44%
    Got C's or worse in high school 23%
    A students 21%
    high school graduate 92%
    GED 7%
    took AP classes in high school 44%
    No what Pi is (term) 88%
    recognize 3.14159... 84%
    took a college placement test more than one time 75%
    Knew that Lincoln was the 16th president 67%

    Note- nearly a 1/3 of students had no or limited technology access in high school
    Last edited by zraver; 02 Dec 09,, 03:35.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shek
    replied
    I don't where to best post this, but it's a fascinating correlation and lines up well with what Z has posted in this thread about the effects of slavery/Reconstruction on current socioeconomics of the South. If you follow the potential causal linkage all the way back, there's a hint of geographic determinism involved.

    The first link is a full blog post discussing the maps. The first picture contains the 2008 election results and 1860 cotton production. The second picture overlays the 1860 cotton production over the 2008 election results.

    The Vigorous North: The Black Belt: How Soil Types Determined the 2008 Election in the Deep South



    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    I hear you there. I live at the very edge of a city limit of about 5000 people, which is a bedroom community for a city of 50,000. Only two years ago where improvements made to the power dist in our area to keep the power on reliably. The first ten years in our house we didn't bother to set any AC powered clocks since the power went out several times a week. Short outages of a few hours usually, but a few went longer. A tornado in May of this year took it out for a week. Folks 5 to 10 miles out of town saw it down for as long as a month in some cases and ice storms are always several days.

    Even being inside the city limit, I still have septic and am on rural water. We did manage to get cable TV about ten years ago and internet is still spotty. Point is, I am really living in a very developed area by our standards. My family in Kansas used to give ma a hard time for "moving to the city".
    cable? whats that LMAO. The ice storms are a primary reason I am putting in a 6000w back up propane system.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blue
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    Where I live has had city water less than 20 years, an we use a septic system. My wife's family once had to mow the road here. Being friends with a quorum court judge finally got water and gravel. We still lose power 3-5 times a year with at least 1x for a couple days at a time on average.
    I hear you there. I live at the very edge of a city limit of about 5000 people, which is a bedroom community for a city of 50,000. Only two years ago where improvements made to the power dist in our area to keep the power on reliably. The first ten years in our house we didn't bother to set any AC powered clocks since the power went out several times a week. Short outages of a few hours usually, but a few went longer. A tornado in May of this year took it out for a week. Folks 5 to 10 miles out of town saw it down for as long as a month in some cases and ice storms are always several days.

    Even being inside the city limit, I still have septic and am on rural water. We did manage to get cable TV about ten years ago and internet is still spotty. Point is, I am really living in a very developed area by our standards. My family in Kansas used to give ma a hard time for "moving to the city".

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
    Thats pretty much what I was going to say, so as a nearby native, I'll just second that. I don't think lots of people understand that outside our modestly sized cities, there is a lot of wide open spaces yet to be civilized.

    There is still many places not far from me where there is no rural water or sewers. That may not seem unusual, but the fact tha there where still places here in the 50s and 60s that did not have electricity and I know of a couple settlements not far from you that only got electric in the 70s. Mostly over near whiterock mtn area.

    Where I live has had city water less than 20 years, an we use a septic system. My wife's family once had to mow the road here. Being friends with a quorum court judge finally got water and gravel. We still lose power 3-5 times a year with at least 1x for a couple days at a time on average.

    The county still doesn't have much requirements in the way of land use- just a perc test for building and if you want a family grave yard you need to set aside at least 1 acre.

    its not the wild west, but its pretty free out here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blue
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    That is easy to say, harder in reality. I don't know how poor you've ever been or if you live in an area that is as widely dispersed as Arkansas but its a totally different world down here.
    Thats pretty much what I was going to say, so as a nearby native, I'll just second that. I don't think lots of people understand that outside our modestly sized cities, there is a lot of wide open spaces yet to be civilized.

    There is still many places not far from me where there is no rural water or sewers. That may not seem unusual, but the fact tha there where still places here in the 50s and 60s that did not have electricity and I know of a couple settlements not far from you that only got electric in the 70s. Mostly over near whiterock mtn area.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    Where there's a will, there's a way. Seriously, a cheap car as reliable wheels will not stand in the way of someone getting a job. Are the logistics harder for someone coming from a lower socioeconomic class - sure. However, if they are just as qualified, then it shouldn't be a deal breaker unless they let it be so.
    That is easy to say, harder in reality. I don't know how poor you've ever been or if you live in an area that is as widely dispersed as Arkansas but its a totally different world down here. In Washington State while i was growing up I could take a bus from Mount Vernon Washington all the way into Tacoma.

    From what I saw, it wasn't state money that lured HP there, although I may be missing some tax breaks - it was local $$ being used to lure them there.
    There was a lot of state money involved as well, I live here. I went to speaking engagement were Gov Bebe was talking it up. State money to get HP to Arkansas and then the fight between locals as to where.

    What other determinants of the lower performance of blacks are involved here? Single-parent households? Cultural aversion to school performance? De facto segregated primary education that results in dramatically different performance by the high school level? Brain drain by highly educated blacks that leave the lesser performing ones behind?
    There is a lot of factors, although oft repeated aversion to education is not one of them.

    While this socioeconomic status may have roots from the postbellum period, and while many of these potential determinants can be related, to me, there's a difference between the active discrimination that the postbellum period through the Civil Rights era and the lingering effects that residual from the prior period. I think Julie captured it that the Civil Rights Movement finally achieved the goals of Reconstruction, but there's definitely truth to any observation that there's still lingering effects from that century long struggle.
    Oh its a lot better, but old habits die hard and white privilege is alive and well.

    BTW, if you have individual level observations that can try to parse out some of the above, I'd be happy to help you set up and run regressions on it. It will only parse out correlations and you'll have to disentangle causation, but it's always interesting to find out how the data shakes out.
    I can send you my data sets. It was a survey of 50 odd questions covering a variety of areas to gauge family, social and educational supports before entering college. it also tried to grab a demographic picture based on race, sex and home town location. I expect to see the lower end students coming from the poorer and minority dominated areas of the state. I also expect them to show higher levels of social distress like broken homes, witness of victim of crime etc. Honors Freshmen are obviously my control group since they are what society defines as a successful student.

    Leave a comment:


  • Julie
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    What other determinants of the lower performance of blacks are involved here? Single-parent households? Cultural aversion to school performance? De facto segregated primary education that results in dramatically different performance by the high school level? Brain drain by highly educated blacks that leave the lesser performing ones behind?
    High School drop out rates. Georgia had the highest dropout rate for this population at 22.1 percent.

    More than one in five blacks dropped out of school (21 percent). The dropout rate for whites was 12.2 percent.

    In the current global economy, having at least a high school diploma is a critical step for avoiding poverty, and a college degree is a prerequisite for a well-paying job.

    'High school dropout crisis' continues in U.S., study says - CNN.com

    Leave a comment:


  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    That takes money, gotta have it to make it.
    Where there's a will, there's a way. Seriously, a cheap car as reliable wheels will not stand in the way of someone getting a job. Are the logistics harder for someone coming from a lower socioeconomic class - sure. However, if they are just as qualified, then it shouldn't be a deal breaker unless they let it be so.

    Originally posted by zraver
    I don't know if it was deliberate, who would admit that. The other area under consideration was Benton, part of the LR metroplex but not part of the transit authority. Another recent additon to the Local economy LM Glasfiber which makes turbine blades located in the cities main off track industrial area with no bus service.

    To be fair Little Rock does get (some) business, they recently got a turbine blade manufacturing plant. But the city seems to be the cut off point and everything South is a waste land as far as investment goes.

    But its not just where businesses locate. At Central High of the Little Rock 9 fame, AP classes in 2007 had 1 black kid in a school that was majority black. magnet schools- mostly white, special ed kids- mostly black.

    I will have better data within a few days as I did a survey of all income remedial and honors freshmen at UCA. The remedial class is 50% black and Honors is 98% white.
    From what I saw, it wasn't state money that lured HP there, although I may be missing some tax breaks - it was local $$ being used to lure them there.

    What other determinants of the lower performance of blacks are involved here? Single-parent households? Cultural aversion to school performance? De facto segregated primary education that results in dramatically different performance by the high school level? Brain drain by highly educated blacks that leave the lesser performing ones behind?

    While this socioeconomic status may have roots from the postbellum period, and while many of these potential determinants can be related, to me, there's a difference between the active discrimination that the postbellum period through the Civil Rights era and the lingering effects that residual from the prior period. I think Julie captured it that the Civil Rights Movement finally achieved the goals of Reconstruction, but there's definitely truth to any observation that there's still lingering effects from that century long struggle.

    BTW, if you have individual level observations that can try to parse out some of the above, I'd be happy to help you set up and run regressions on it. It will only parse out correlations and you'll have to disentangle causation, but it's always interesting to find out how the data shakes out.

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    Why can't they move to where the job is or buy reliable transportation?
    That takes money, gotta have it to make it.

    Was there a deliberate attempt by government to steer this away from Little Rock. Is this systematic across the state? How much money would the state have to spend to induce HP or another corporation to move to an area that the private company finds less desireable? What's the cost-benefit ratio here and does it help or hurt the state?
    I don't know if it was deliberate, who would admit that. The other area under consideration was Benton, part of the LR metroplex but not part of the transit authority. Another recent additon to the Local economy LM Glasfiber which makes turbine blades located in the cities main off track industrial area with no bus service.

    To be fair Little Rock does get (some) business, they recently got a turbine blade manufacturing plant. But the city seems to be the cut off point and everything South is a waste land as far as investment goes.

    But its not just where businesses locate. At Central High of the Little Rock 9 fame, AP classes in 2007 had 1 black kid in a school that was majority black. magnet schools- mostly white, special ed kids- mostly black.

    I will have better data within a few days as I did a survey of all income remedial and honors freshmen at UCA. The remedial class is 50% black and Honors is 98% white.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by zraver View Post
    And yet some of the same social factors are in play. HP is building a customer service center in Conway Arkansas with a median income of 40,000 or nearly double the state average. Conway is mostly white, highly educated and has no transit system. Thus an otherwise qualified minority 25 minutes away in Little Rock who does not have reliable transportation cannot compete for these jobs.
    Why can't they move to where the job is or buy reliable transportation? From looking at the news, the jobs will pay a $40K starting salary, which should be plenty to cover rent and/or a modest car payment.

    Was there a deliberate attempt by government to steer this away from Little Rock. Is this systematic across the state? How much money would the state have to spend to induce HP or another corporation to move to an area that the private company finds less desireable? What's the cost-benefit ratio here and does it help or hurt the state?

    Leave a comment:


  • zraver
    replied
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    Lower wage in a high-tech industry, where unions are the driving force behind the higher, unsustainable wage. The postbellum South chose low-tech industry in an era where unions didn't exist to drive wages above equilibrium rates. A different dynamic altogether.
    And yet some of the same social factors are in play. HP is building a customer service center in Conway Arkansas with a median income of 40,000 or nearly double the state average. Conway is mostly white, highly educated and has no transit system. Thus an otherwise qualified minority 25 minutes away in Little Rock who does not have reliable transportation cannot compete for these jobs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shek
    replied
    Originally posted by Julie View Post
    The auto industry has all but abandoned the North, and is re-located in the South. We have a huge plant here on the river called "The Trade Zone." New cars for miles as far as the eye can see.

    Georgia is a right-to-work State, low cost of living, low wages. Is this why these companies are flocking here now?

    Not trying to change the subject, just attempting not to pee on the carpet again. ;)
    Lower wage in a high-tech industry, where unions are the driving force behind the higher, unsustainable wage. The postbellum South chose low-tech industry in an era where unions didn't exist to drive wages above equilibrium rates. A different dynamic altogether.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X