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  • #31
    Originally posted by Shek View Post
    They also had to "import" a lot of folks from other regions of the country to boost their education level.
    absolutely, but you see a more radical new order in the south as comapred to other regions of the country.The NE and West already had a fairly robust technical/academic base and lower midwest, southwest and Mountain west didn't have the population to do much regardless.



    I'd refer to the part where keeping the same "social status" would be synonymous with keeping poor whites in their proper strata.
    yes, but it sugar coasts the reality.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Julie View Post
      I think they knew of no other course to charter but their antebellum ways.
      This sounds as if one is excusing the dog for peeing the carpet again because it knows nothing better.

      They could have looked to the North for an example. They could have looked to the West for an example. They could have looked to England for an example. I grant that there's inertia to overcome, but they chose to return as much as possible to the status quo antebellum socially, which meant that they returned to a version of King Cotton, except that King Cotton was no longer king.

      I just finished reading the Wright piece that I referred to last night, and he provides a very compelling argument about how the South chose to maintain the status quo. As late as the Great Depression, the very powerful Southern bloc in Congress argued against sending federal money into the South to help combat unemployment, in essence, because this money would cause changes that would upset the social status quo. They chose to underinvest in education because they feared that brain drain would cause this newly educated class to flee the South and take their newly acquired knowledge with them, just as Z pointed out has happened to some education approaches in the delta regions.

      It took a federal minimum wage law and the Fair Labor Standards Act to end the one major comparative advantage that the South had - cheap labor that had a huge gap on Northern wages, and this, among other things, forced the South to pursue labor-saving technologies and human capital development. This set the stage for economic growth in the aggregate that closed the gap on the rest of the regions of the US.
      "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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      • #33
        The auto industry has all but abandoned the North, and is re-located in the South. We have a huge plant here on the river called "The Trade Zone." New cars for miles as far as the eye can see.

        Georgia is a right-to-work State, low cost of living, low wages. Is this why these companies are flocking here now?

        Not trying to change the subject, just attempting not to pee on the carpet again. ;)

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Julie View Post
          The auto industry has all but abandoned the North, and is re-located in the South. We have a huge plant here on the river called "The Trade Zone." New cars for miles as far as the eye can see.

          Georgia is a right-to-work State, low cost of living, low wages. Is this why these companies are flocking here now?

          Not trying to change the subject, just attempting not to pee on the carpet again. ;)
          Lower wage in a high-tech industry, where unions are the driving force behind the higher, unsustainable wage. The postbellum South chose low-tech industry in an era where unions didn't exist to drive wages above equilibrium rates. A different dynamic altogether.
          "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Shek View Post
            Lower wage in a high-tech industry, where unions are the driving force behind the higher, unsustainable wage. The postbellum South chose low-tech industry in an era where unions didn't exist to drive wages above equilibrium rates. A different dynamic altogether.
            And yet some of the same social factors are in play. HP is building a customer service center in Conway Arkansas with a median income of 40,000 or nearly double the state average. Conway is mostly white, highly educated and has no transit system. Thus an otherwise qualified minority 25 minutes away in Little Rock who does not have reliable transportation cannot compete for these jobs.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by zraver View Post
              And yet some of the same social factors are in play. HP is building a customer service center in Conway Arkansas with a median income of 40,000 or nearly double the state average. Conway is mostly white, highly educated and has no transit system. Thus an otherwise qualified minority 25 minutes away in Little Rock who does not have reliable transportation cannot compete for these jobs.
              Why can't they move to where the job is or buy reliable transportation? From looking at the news, the jobs will pay a $40K starting salary, which should be plenty to cover rent and/or a modest car payment.

              Was there a deliberate attempt by government to steer this away from Little Rock. Is this systematic across the state? How much money would the state have to spend to induce HP or another corporation to move to an area that the private company finds less desireable? What's the cost-benefit ratio here and does it help or hurt the state?
              "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Shek View Post
                Why can't they move to where the job is or buy reliable transportation?
                That takes money, gotta have it to make it.

                Was there a deliberate attempt by government to steer this away from Little Rock. Is this systematic across the state? How much money would the state have to spend to induce HP or another corporation to move to an area that the private company finds less desireable? What's the cost-benefit ratio here and does it help or hurt the state?
                I don't know if it was deliberate, who would admit that. The other area under consideration was Benton, part of the LR metroplex but not part of the transit authority. Another recent additon to the Local economy LM Glasfiber which makes turbine blades located in the cities main off track industrial area with no bus service.

                To be fair Little Rock does get (some) business, they recently got a turbine blade manufacturing plant. But the city seems to be the cut off point and everything South is a waste land as far as investment goes.

                But its not just where businesses locate. At Central High of the Little Rock 9 fame, AP classes in 2007 had 1 black kid in a school that was majority black. magnet schools- mostly white, special ed kids- mostly black.

                I will have better data within a few days as I did a survey of all income remedial and honors freshmen at UCA. The remedial class is 50% black and Honors is 98% white.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by zraver View Post
                  That takes money, gotta have it to make it.
                  Where there's a will, there's a way. Seriously, a cheap car as reliable wheels will not stand in the way of someone getting a job. Are the logistics harder for someone coming from a lower socioeconomic class - sure. However, if they are just as qualified, then it shouldn't be a deal breaker unless they let it be so.

                  Originally posted by zraver
                  I don't know if it was deliberate, who would admit that. The other area under consideration was Benton, part of the LR metroplex but not part of the transit authority. Another recent additon to the Local economy LM Glasfiber which makes turbine blades located in the cities main off track industrial area with no bus service.

                  To be fair Little Rock does get (some) business, they recently got a turbine blade manufacturing plant. But the city seems to be the cut off point and everything South is a waste land as far as investment goes.

                  But its not just where businesses locate. At Central High of the Little Rock 9 fame, AP classes in 2007 had 1 black kid in a school that was majority black. magnet schools- mostly white, special ed kids- mostly black.

                  I will have better data within a few days as I did a survey of all income remedial and honors freshmen at UCA. The remedial class is 50% black and Honors is 98% white.
                  From what I saw, it wasn't state money that lured HP there, although I may be missing some tax breaks - it was local $$ being used to lure them there.

                  What other determinants of the lower performance of blacks are involved here? Single-parent households? Cultural aversion to school performance? De facto segregated primary education that results in dramatically different performance by the high school level? Brain drain by highly educated blacks that leave the lesser performing ones behind?

                  While this socioeconomic status may have roots from the postbellum period, and while many of these potential determinants can be related, to me, there's a difference between the active discrimination that the postbellum period through the Civil Rights era and the lingering effects that residual from the prior period. I think Julie captured it that the Civil Rights Movement finally achieved the goals of Reconstruction, but there's definitely truth to any observation that there's still lingering effects from that century long struggle.

                  BTW, if you have individual level observations that can try to parse out some of the above, I'd be happy to help you set up and run regressions on it. It will only parse out correlations and you'll have to disentangle causation, but it's always interesting to find out how the data shakes out.
                  "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Shek View Post
                    What other determinants of the lower performance of blacks are involved here? Single-parent households? Cultural aversion to school performance? De facto segregated primary education that results in dramatically different performance by the high school level? Brain drain by highly educated blacks that leave the lesser performing ones behind?
                    High School drop out rates. Georgia had the highest dropout rate for this population at 22.1 percent.

                    More than one in five blacks dropped out of school (21 percent). The dropout rate for whites was 12.2 percent.

                    In the current global economy, having at least a high school diploma is a critical step for avoiding poverty, and a college degree is a prerequisite for a well-paying job.

                    'High school dropout crisis' continues in U.S., study says - CNN.com

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Shek View Post
                      Where there's a will, there's a way. Seriously, a cheap car as reliable wheels will not stand in the way of someone getting a job. Are the logistics harder for someone coming from a lower socioeconomic class - sure. However, if they are just as qualified, then it shouldn't be a deal breaker unless they let it be so.
                      That is easy to say, harder in reality. I don't know how poor you've ever been or if you live in an area that is as widely dispersed as Arkansas but its a totally different world down here. In Washington State while i was growing up I could take a bus from Mount Vernon Washington all the way into Tacoma.

                      From what I saw, it wasn't state money that lured HP there, although I may be missing some tax breaks - it was local $$ being used to lure them there.
                      There was a lot of state money involved as well, I live here. I went to speaking engagement were Gov Bebe was talking it up. State money to get HP to Arkansas and then the fight between locals as to where.

                      What other determinants of the lower performance of blacks are involved here? Single-parent households? Cultural aversion to school performance? De facto segregated primary education that results in dramatically different performance by the high school level? Brain drain by highly educated blacks that leave the lesser performing ones behind?
                      There is a lot of factors, although oft repeated aversion to education is not one of them.

                      While this socioeconomic status may have roots from the postbellum period, and while many of these potential determinants can be related, to me, there's a difference between the active discrimination that the postbellum period through the Civil Rights era and the lingering effects that residual from the prior period. I think Julie captured it that the Civil Rights Movement finally achieved the goals of Reconstruction, but there's definitely truth to any observation that there's still lingering effects from that century long struggle.
                      Oh its a lot better, but old habits die hard and white privilege is alive and well.

                      BTW, if you have individual level observations that can try to parse out some of the above, I'd be happy to help you set up and run regressions on it. It will only parse out correlations and you'll have to disentangle causation, but it's always interesting to find out how the data shakes out.
                      I can send you my data sets. It was a survey of 50 odd questions covering a variety of areas to gauge family, social and educational supports before entering college. it also tried to grab a demographic picture based on race, sex and home town location. I expect to see the lower end students coming from the poorer and minority dominated areas of the state. I also expect them to show higher levels of social distress like broken homes, witness of victim of crime etc. Honors Freshmen are obviously my control group since they are what society defines as a successful student.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by zraver View Post
                        That is easy to say, harder in reality. I don't know how poor you've ever been or if you live in an area that is as widely dispersed as Arkansas but its a totally different world down here.
                        Thats pretty much what I was going to say, so as a nearby native, I'll just second that. I don't think lots of people understand that outside our modestly sized cities, there is a lot of wide open spaces yet to be civilized.

                        There is still many places not far from me where there is no rural water or sewers. That may not seem unusual, but the fact tha there where still places here in the 50s and 60s that did not have electricity and I know of a couple settlements not far from you that only got electric in the 70s. Mostly over near whiterock mtn area.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                          Thats pretty much what I was going to say, so as a nearby native, I'll just second that. I don't think lots of people understand that outside our modestly sized cities, there is a lot of wide open spaces yet to be civilized.

                          There is still many places not far from me where there is no rural water or sewers. That may not seem unusual, but the fact tha there where still places here in the 50s and 60s that did not have electricity and I know of a couple settlements not far from you that only got electric in the 70s. Mostly over near whiterock mtn area.

                          Where I live has had city water less than 20 years, an we use a septic system. My wife's family once had to mow the road here. Being friends with a quorum court judge finally got water and gravel. We still lose power 3-5 times a year with at least 1x for a couple days at a time on average.

                          The county still doesn't have much requirements in the way of land use- just a perc test for building and if you want a family grave yard you need to set aside at least 1 acre.

                          its not the wild west, but its pretty free out here.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by zraver View Post
                            Where I live has had city water less than 20 years, an we use a septic system. My wife's family once had to mow the road here. Being friends with a quorum court judge finally got water and gravel. We still lose power 3-5 times a year with at least 1x for a couple days at a time on average.
                            I hear you there. I live at the very edge of a city limit of about 5000 people, which is a bedroom community for a city of 50,000. Only two years ago where improvements made to the power dist in our area to keep the power on reliably. The first ten years in our house we didn't bother to set any AC powered clocks since the power went out several times a week. Short outages of a few hours usually, but a few went longer. A tornado in May of this year took it out for a week. Folks 5 to 10 miles out of town saw it down for as long as a month in some cases and ice storms are always several days.

                            Even being inside the city limit, I still have septic and am on rural water. We did manage to get cable TV about ten years ago and internet is still spotty. Point is, I am really living in a very developed area by our standards. My family in Kansas used to give ma a hard time for "moving to the city".

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 7thsfsniper View Post
                              I hear you there. I live at the very edge of a city limit of about 5000 people, which is a bedroom community for a city of 50,000. Only two years ago where improvements made to the power dist in our area to keep the power on reliably. The first ten years in our house we didn't bother to set any AC powered clocks since the power went out several times a week. Short outages of a few hours usually, but a few went longer. A tornado in May of this year took it out for a week. Folks 5 to 10 miles out of town saw it down for as long as a month in some cases and ice storms are always several days.

                              Even being inside the city limit, I still have septic and am on rural water. We did manage to get cable TV about ten years ago and internet is still spotty. Point is, I am really living in a very developed area by our standards. My family in Kansas used to give ma a hard time for "moving to the city".
                              cable? whats that LMAO. The ice storms are a primary reason I am putting in a 6000w back up propane system.

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                              • #45
                                I don't where to best post this, but it's a fascinating correlation and lines up well with what Z has posted in this thread about the effects of slavery/Reconstruction on current socioeconomics of the South. If you follow the potential causal linkage all the way back, there's a hint of geographic determinism involved.

                                The first link is a full blog post discussing the maps. The first picture contains the 2008 election results and 1860 cotton production. The second picture overlays the 1860 cotton production over the 2008 election results.

                                The Vigorous North: The Black Belt: How Soil Types Determined the 2008 Election in the Deep South



                                "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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