Is the American civil war really over??

[Blue]

You answered your own question.

I don't see it that way. Although I see your point, it really is not that way here.

A few years ago a friend of mine picked up a very nice handmade shirt for me that had the cross on the back. I wore it to our local bar on saturday night. Before I left that night, several people commented on the shirt and wanted to know where I got it so they get thier own. One black friend of mine who was married to a white woman. One white friend of mine, who has a black sister, and a guy that was relative to the latter.

Guess we are just the rebel flag wavin rainbow coalition down here!!:))

Point is, the only folks who seem to have a problem with it are those that don't understand it, or have thier own racial problems and think if you display it, you are one of the white sup types.

Interesting article about how Mississippi decided to keep thier flag just how it was.
Mississippi 2001 Flag Referendum

An even more interesting point.

Many believed that Mississippians voted along racial lines. However, this was not necessarily the case. As a matter of pragmatic fact, only 13% of Caucasian voters had to vote for change in order for the new flag to be victorious at the ballot box. Unofficial and unscientific exit polls suggested that more than 20% of white voters said the flag should change. What's more interesting is that in certain counties where an overwhelming majority of the population is African American, the vote was roughly split

[Station 22]

You'll find an interesting dichotmy among Southerners. While we fly flags emblematic of the CSA, we are also fiercely patriotic to the USA and are more than willing to take up arms to defend the country.

Why is there loyalty to the CSA then? I suspect a myriad of reasons, some as described above. One thing to remember, the Old South is the only part of the country to be defeated and occupied by an opposing army (Indian wars not withstanding). The occupation was not an easy thing to stomach. Here is something else to chew on. It was not a civil war, the South was not seeking to absorb the North; it simply wanted to be a seperate country. In essense, it was no more a civil war than was the US War of Independence.

a region that was poorer, politically ossified (until the 40s & 50s anyway) and socially backward.

How can you possible quantify that?

Whatever anyone might say about the racism in the North (or the large northern cities at least), it was not in the same league as the south. Events such as lynchings, the 'Monkey Trial' & violent reactions to civil rights simply reinforced such perceptions.

How does the Scopes trial fit in with racism?

Do not be fooled by dejure racism that existed in the South, thinking that defacto racism did not exist in the North. As there were less numbers of former slaves in the North, it was far easier to segregate the races, as they already lived seperated anyway. In the South, with its larger Black population interpersed among the white, Southern legalities took the place of Northern economics in seperating the races. I am old enough to remember desegregation of the schools in the South. I also remember when the same thing occured in Boston in the mid 70s, the supposed bastion of liberal thought. Note, I said the mid 70s, long after the South had desegregated. The rioting there by the whites made the South look like child's play. Where do you think the strongest Klan activity is today. I'll give you a hint, it ain't the South.

Stereotypes that come to mind for Northeasterners would be rude, loud, obnoxious, unhelpful, hurry, hurry, hurry, get out of my way, screw you, and so on. With California, a few different stereotypes come to mind. There's the classic liberal and hippie, our system is superior, everybody ought to know how cool and better where I come from is just by dropping a name (San Diego, San Francisco, etc.). West in between the Midwest and the coast... well, that's kind of an extension of the Midwest, and I don't think people from the Mountain West are seen as altogether than different from people in the Upper Midwest by people from the latter.

I have worked with more than one Northerner (I would normally call them Yankees) who has expressed suprise in how polite Southerners are in aspects of public life. But keep this in mind, just because we are nice to you, it does not mean we like you.

Judging by the sheer number of utterly ignorant a--holes driving around with Confederate Naval Jacks hanging off their pick-up trucks and bragging/claiming that it's their "heritage"...I would say "No" the Civil War is not over (in their minds) but regardless, there is no way in hell or heaven that the South is going to "rise again".

I've fought that battle for years. Starting in 1955, the state government of Alabama flew the flag you descibed (Naval jack with dark instead of lighter blue) on top of the dome of the capitol. In the 1990, a group of black lawmakers begin agitate to have it taken down. I agreed with them, mostly because it was historically incorrect. 1. That flag never flew over the capitol during the war. Why would you fly a flag of the Army (or Navy) on a civilian builiding? 2. The flag of the Confederacy did not fly on the dome, but on a pole just off the West Portico

When visiting Gettysburg about six weeks ago with a good friend and his mother, I found it humorous how upset my friend's mother got when seeing the Confederate monuments. She was especially upset when I told her how most of the Army installations in the south are named after Confederate generals.

Public schools are also named for Confederate legends. In the local city there is a Jefferson Davis High School and Robert E. Lee HS, complete with a statue out front, of the general looking to the north. Both schools are nearly all black.

Google is my friend

Larger Confederate Flag Unfurled Near I-75 In Hillsborough

It's on the property of a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
The flag is 30-by-60-foot and flies from a 139 foot tall pole.

The purpose of the flag is to commemorate CSA veterans. So if that's the purpose...why in the hell is that design being used? It's not the CSA national colors, nor a CSA battle flag. If anything he's commemorating the Confederate Navy. Rafael Semmes, at least, would be proud.

There is another on I-65 in Alabama, near Verbena. It is huge and visible for miles.

In answer to the question of whether I am a Southerner still fighting the War of Secession*, I reply, "Only when fired upon, suh."


*other more appropriate names for the war: The Second American Revolution, The War of Southern Independence, the War of Northern Aggession & The Great Unpleasantries of 1861-1865.

[Blue]

I found this very interesting. Talk about a stereotype beater!!!

Southern Heritage 411

[Shek]

I found this very interesting. Talk about a stereotype beater!!!

Southern Heritage 411

If it pays the bills . . .

[Bigfella]

How can you possible quantify that?

I would have thought that legal segregation quantifies it nicely.

How does the Scopes trial fit in with racism?

It doesn't (in this context at least). I may have expressed myself poorly. I was pointing out some reasons why northerners might have seen southerners as 'backward' or 'hicks'. Putting the treaching of science in the dock most definately qualifies.

Do not be fooled by dejure racism that existed in the South, thinking that defacto racism did not exist in the North.

I'm not, as I think I made clear. I am well aware of attitudes in the nth.

As there were less numbers of former slaves in the North, it was far easier to segregate the races, as they already lived seperated anyway. In the South, with its larger Black population interpersed among the white, Southern legalities took the place of Northern economics in seperating the races.

'Northern economics' produced segregation in housing & therefore education, but the South took that a LOT further - extending it to a wide variety of public & private spaces & even to personal relationships. Two attempt to compare the two as you have reminds me of southern arguments about 'wage slavery' etc. in the antebellum nth. Disengenuous at best.

It is also worth noting that the flood of migrants to the north during the early decades of the C20th didn't lead to northerners replicating southern segregation. Blacks may have been treated as inferior in the north, but they were permitted the same basic rights as whites.

I am old enough to remember desegregation of the schools in the South. I also remember when the same thing occured in Boston in the mid 70s, the supposed bastion of liberal thought. Note, I said the mid 70s, long after the South had desegregated. The rioting there by the whites made the South look like child's play.

You've cherry picked one aspect of desegregation. Perhaps it is because it is one of the few areas where the north actually had something approaching the formal segregation of the south. You have also cherry picked the worst example of northern resistance to desegregation. There were also protests against school desegregation in the sth in the 70s. In Louiville there were large protests at around the same time as in Boston. The situation in Boston did indeed become ugly, but it was kindegarten playtime compared to what accompanied desegregation (all of it) in the south. Again, disengenuous at best.

Where do you think the strongest Klan activity is today. I'll give you a hint, it ain't the South.

I'm pleased that the South has moved on. Not sure what it has to do with the theory I was proposing - a discussion of attitudes moulded some time ago.

Keep in mind that the point I was making was about perception. I think the perceptions were rooted in reality, but like all broad brush views of a people/culture/region etc. they ignore depth, diversity & complexity.

[Blue]

If it pays the bills . . .

My point being that there IS a legitimate southern heritage to be proud of and some choose to fly the flag and try to educate others about it. An unjustified war was waged that cost more Americans lives than any other. It was a war waged by the same govt that exists today. The Southern states did not begin hostilities, they simply wanted independence from what they viewed as an unjust govt, as guaranteed by the constitution.

There really is nothing more American than that. Slavery was on its way out and wasn't even the issue at the beginning of the war as decided in other discussions on this forum. That leaves the primary reason alone that the North was seeing all that tax money from the south not getting to thier coffers. Hence, the biggest proscecution of tax evasion we have ever seen.

So to answer my own question, of course the civil war is over. However, it is not and should not be forgotten, but should be remembered for the right reasons. However, and as has been illustrated here, I get the feeling that many northerners all too often look at us southerners as rebel flag waving nuts that haven't a clue to the "real" history or meaning of that which we declare as our heritage. And that is a shame.

[Albany Rifles]

Some would say the Confederacy had 4 flags during its tenure...many consider The Bonnie Blue Flag as the first Confederate Flag



Now, I see my fair share of Confederate flags where I live...go figure. I really am bugged by those who fly the Naval Jack and have no idea what it is they are flying...be it from a flagpole, antenna of a pick up or sticker in a window. I display the following flags.





I do love the puzzled looks on peoples faces when they start counting the stars...a few figure it out. Most have no clue.

As for the heritage or hate argument. Several years ago our local Boy SCout Council changed it sname from the Robert E. Lee Council to the Heart of Virginia Council. A lot of people were upset by the change, citing it as a gross example of PC run amok. Almost to a person whop I talked to about were of the opinion that it was a bad decision and "It's always been the Robert E, Lee Council! This is BS!!" was a typical response.

What most everyone conveniently forgot was until the mid-1950s It was the Central Virginia Council...and it was changed to the Robert E. Lee Council during Massive Resistance. I do enjoy peoples reactions when I bring up that little fact!

[Albany Rifles]

I found this very interesting. Talk about a stereotype beater!!!

Southern Heritage 411

HK Edgerton is known to be, how should we put this, a fringe character. He and others of his ilk are well known as having views WAY outside of the mainstream.

Blacks did not serve as soldiers in Confederate units until March 1865. That is not to say that tens of thousands of slaves and free blacks did not SERVE the Confederate armies. they certainly did but were never recognized as combatants. The state governments of the Confederacy denied ALL pension requests for other than the handful who served in 3 battalions formed in March 1865.

[Julie]

Why is the guy so far outside the mainstream?

You people just kill me....don't you know that the confederate flag represents different things to different people?

This guy is proud probably because that war freed blacks, and the flag today distinguishes past vs. present. The South survived that war, and set the wheels in motion for freedom, and today, that black man can stand on a street corner with a confederate flag and have his picture proudly taken with white people.

The South has risen again, it has risen to the occasion that people of all colors can live, work, and socialize together.

Southern people fly, wave, and wear their flag because it distinguishes how far we have come since the Civil War, and the only thing the Civil War DID NOT change is that we are still Southerners. Nothing can and will ever change that, and we certainly do not want northerners coming down to the South telling US how offensive OUR flag is.

:)

[Albany Rifles]

Why is the guy so far outside the mainstream?

You people just kill me....don't you know that the confederate flag represents different things to different people?

This guy is proud probably because that war freed blacks, and the flag today distinguishes past vs. present. The South survived that war, and set the wheels in motion for freedom, and today, that black man can stand on a street corner with a confederate flag and have his picture proudly taken with white people.

The South has risen again, it has risen to the occasion that people of all colors can live, work, and socialize together.

Southern people fly, wave, and wear their flag because it distinguishes how far we have come since the Civil War, and the only thing the Civil War DID NOT change is that we are still Southerners. Nothing can and will ever change that, and we certainly do not want northerners coming down to the South telling US how offensive OUR flag is.

:)

Edgerton insists that blacks took up arms voluntarily and in large numbers during the ACW. That never happened.

That is what I referred to in my statement about. It had nothing to do with his erroneously holding a Confederate flag as a reenactor...an act no Confederate soldier would have allowed during the ACW.

[TopHatter]

Time to fulfill Godwin's Law

This guy is proud probably because that war freed blacks, and the flag today distinguishes past vs. present. The South survived that war, and set the wheels in motion for freedom, and today, that black man can stand on a street corner with a confederate flag and have his picture proudly taken with white people.

Julie, I usually respect your opinion on things, but that is just LAUGHABLE! :))

I can't imagine for the life of me a Jew proudly holding a Nazi flag for the reasons you describe above. It's just beyond bizarre.

[Blue]

I can't imagine for the life of me a Jew proudly holding a Nazi flag for the reasons you describe above. It's just beyond bizarre.

Well since the Nazis were trying to EXTERMINATE the Jews, I would call that a bit confusing. But of the 6% of southerners that owned slaves, around 150 of them were well to do BLACK men that owned BLACK slaves and of those, a couple of them owned over 100 slaves!

They certainly didn't want the war because they lost out like everyone else.

Your comparison of the Nazi and the Jew is laughable as to the comparison of the confederate and the Negro. Free blacks where well respected in the south by many.

[Station 22]

I would have thought that legal segregation quantifies it nicely.

And I would disagree.

I'm not, as I think I made clear. I am well aware of attitudes in the nth.

'Northern economics' produced segregation in housing & therefore education, but the South took that a LOT further - extending it to a wide variety of public & private spaces & even to personal relationships. Two attempt to compare the two as you have reminds me of southern arguments about 'wage slavery' etc. in the antebellum nth. Disengenuous at best.

It is also worth noting that the flood of migrants to the north during the early decades of the C20th didn't lead to northerners replicating southern segregation. Blacks may have been treated as inferior in the north, but they were permitted the same basic rights as whites.

You've cherry picked one aspect of desegregation. Perhaps it is because it is one of the few areas where the north actually had something approaching the formal segregation of the south. You have also cherry picked the worst example of northern resistance to desegregation. There were also protests against school desegregation in the sth in the 70s. In Louiville there were large protests at around the same time as in Boston. The situation in Boston did indeed become ugly, but it was kindegarten playtime compared to what accompanied desegregation (all of it) in the south. Again, disengenuous at best.

The North was able to accomplish its similar goals by economics and did not have to resort to laws to obtain the same outcome. Again, the North accomplished the same segreational outcome by economics, they did not have to resort to laws. The fact that they did not codify what they practiced does not make them any less culpable.

I cherry picked nothing. I provided you with a single example well within memory of adults past the age of 40 who have lived in the US.

Segregation City: Chicago in the 60s | Scholastic.com
The History of Jim Crow
Encyclopedia of American race riots - Google Books
Jim Crow in the North -- In These Times
Jim Crow Riots--Southern urban centers
Here’s another book:
JIM CROW MOVES NORTH: THE BATTLE OVER NORTHERN SCHOOL SEGREGATION, 1865-1954

Here are a few instances of deadly race riots outside the South.

• 1908: A race riot occurs in Springfield, Illinois, the home of Abraham Lincoln. Two vicious Black on White murders spark off a White riot during which a White crowd kills two Blacks and burns down a crime infested Black suburb known as the "Badlands."
• 1917: A race riot occurs in St. Louis, Illinois; some 40 people, mainly Blacks, are killed in the violence;
• 1918: A Black riot in Chester, Pennsylvania, spreads out to attack White passersby: two Whites are killed and three Blacks are shot by police;
• 1918: The riot in Chester spreads to Philadelphia in Pennsylvania. One White is killed and three Blacks are shot by police;
• July 1919 - Chicago; this was the worst of the 1919 riots. Sparked off when some Whites threw a few stones at a Black swimming in Lake Michigan; the Black swimmer subsequently drowned. The police refused to arrest the stone throwers as there was no link between the stone throwing and the drowning. Dissatisfied, a Black mob then went on a rampage in Chicago for several days, resulting in 38 deaths;
• 1943: Conflicts over housing and jobs develop between Black and White workers, breaking out into open racial conflict in Detroit, resulting in the deaths of 25 Blacks and nine Whites before federal troops restore order.

I'm pleased that the South has moved on. Not sure what it has to do with the theory I was proposing - a discussion of attitudes moulded some time ago.

Keep in mind that the point I was making was about perception. I think the perceptions were rooted in reality, but like all broad brush views of a people/culture/region etc. they ignore depth, diversity & complexity.

The South has its share of sins, some real, some imagined. Unilateral guilt is not of them.

Attitudes are molded by those doing the selective reporting, and as we know, the winners write the history...

[TopHatter]

Well since the Nazis were trying to EXTERMINATE the Jews, I would call that a bit confusing. But of the 6% of southerners that owned slaves, around 150 of them were well to do BLACK men that owned BLACK slaves and of those, a couple of them owned over 100 slaves!

They certainly didn't want the war because they lost out like everyone else.

The idea that a black man in the 21st Century is proudly displaying a Confederate flag because it represents the past is, to me, laughable. If your mileage varies, glad to hear it.

Your comparison of the Nazi and the Jew is laughable as to the comparison of the confederate and the Negro. Free blacks where well respected in the south by many.

Oh come ON! "Free blacks were well respected in the south by many" In what version of whose reality??

[Station 22]

Well since the Nazis were trying to EXTERMINATE the Jews, I would call that a bit confusing. But of the 6% of southerners that owned slaves, around 150 of them were well to do BLACK men that owned BLACK slaves and of those, a couple of them owned over 100 slaves!

Here is an interesting read on that very subject.

Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms