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Was Lee All That?

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  • #31
    Here's a quote from JFC Fuller's book Grant and Lee, where when he had initiated his research for his book Grant and Lee, he

    had accepted the conventional point of view that Grant was a butcher and Lee one of the greatest generals the world had ever seen . . . Then I turned to Grant, and found him nothing like the Grant I had been led to picture; lastly to Lee, to discover that in several respects he was one of the most incapable Generals-in-Chief in history -- so much for school education.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Shek View Post
      Here's a quote from JFC Fuller's book Grant and Lee, where when he had initiated his research for his book Grant and Lee, he

      If my bibliography for my thesis hadn't been in alpahbetical order thsi book would have been listed first under my secondary sources.
      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
      Mark Twain

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      • #33
        Wasn't Lee a citizen of Virginia first? That's what I got from a reading of whatever biography I read. From there on his loyalties must have been for the side he fought on (I apologize, I don't visit often so I don't read too closely the posts that precede my responses)...

        Lee picked a side if you will. He stuck with them, and at wherever it was surrendered his forces, Appotomax, seems to be the consences(sp) and such an American went on to establish a school of higher learning that contributed greatly to my country...

        Was Lee 'All That?'

        Let us fight our political differences on a battle field, who wants to be a president and who wants to "makee-learnee"

        I'd say that Lee was 'All That'

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        • #34
          Originally posted by pate View Post
          Wasn't Lee a citizen of Virginia first? That's what I got from a reading of whatever biography I read. From there on his loyalties must have been for the side he fought on (I apologize, I don't visit often so I don't read too closely the posts that precede my responses)...

          Lee picked a side if you will. He stuck with them, and at wherever it was surrendered his forces, Appotomax, seems to be the consences(sp) and such an American went on to establish a school of higher learning that contributed greatly to my country...

          Was Lee 'All That?'

          Let us fight our political differences on a battle field, who wants to be a president and who wants to "makee-learnee"

          I'd say that Lee was 'All That'
          Pate,
          Swing and a miss. ;) This thread has nothing to do with political differences and everything to do with his record of generalship, which I think is much less shiny that conventional wisdom makes it out to be. Also, Lee didn't find Washington and Lee - it was Washington University when he took on the being the university president and later renamed Washington and Lee.
          "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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          • #35
            this is necro-posting of the highest order, but i figure...this was a great thread anyways.

            i actually did not know some of Lee's particular views here, quite interesting.

            https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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            • #36
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              this is necro-posting of the highest order, but i figure...this was a great thread anyways.
              An excellent article and well-deserving a necro-post IMO.

              It's extremely important that we look beyond the myth and hero worship of past conflicts and discover what actually happened.
              "Proud Boys - Stand back and stand by" ~ President Donald J Trump 30 September 2020

              "Standing down and standing by sir"~ Proud Boys 30 September 2020

              “Trump basically said to go fuck them up...This makes me so happy.” Joe Biggs, a leader of the Proud Boys 30 September 2020

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              • #37
                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                this is necro-posting of the highest order, but i figure...this was a great thread anyways.

                i actually did not know some of Lee's particular views here, quite interesting.

                https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/
                Great article Asty. Quite a bit there I didn't know and some blows to the Lee mythology.

                That said, I also think calm heads need to prevail when it comes to the current wave of demonumentification (I think I just made up a word). There is a pretty good argument that statues of Lee & Davis put up 5 years after the war in states that had little to do with them were always on shaky ground - their removal from New Orleans is defensible, though with reservations. Statues dedicated to 'local' figures, however, need to be judged by different criteria. For all his failings, Pierre Gustave Toutant Beauregard remains one of the best known Louisianans of all time and leaves a genuinely mixed legacy. Its a pity his statue was removed with the others.
                sigpic

                Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                • #38
                  BF,

                  yup. ironically the Lost Cause mythology also buried a lot of state history and notable local figures-- how many schools are named after Robert E Lee, compared to schools named after George Henry Thomas?

                  the latter was also a proud Virginian, faithful to his oath and country; the man was a successful general, doing what Lee could never do-- smash the enemy's army; and he's basically forgotten today, unless you happen to be a Civil War nerd. sad, really.

                  on a less great person scale, tens of thousands of Southerners fought with the Union (25K from North Carolina alone), a similar number acted as internal resistance-- everything from guerilla warfare to sabotage to simply draft dodging. if there's talk about veneration of heroes or heritage, perhaps start there.
                  There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    BF,

                    yup. ironically the Lost Cause mythology also buried a lot of state history and notable local figures-- how many schools are named after Robert E Lee, compared to schools named after George Henry Thomas?

                    the latter was also a proud Virginian, faithful to his oath and country; the man was a successful general, doing what Lee could never do-- smash the enemy's army; and he's basically forgotten today, unless you happen to be a Civil War nerd. sad, really.

                    on a less great person scale, tens of thousands of Southerners fought with the Union (25K from North Carolina alone), a similar number acted as internal resistance-- everything from guerilla warfare to sabotage to simply draft dodging. if there's talk about veneration of heroes or heritage, perhaps start there.
                    Yes, the idea that this is all just about 'history' deliberately ignores the highly politicized nature of that history. Personally I would rather see monuments to people who fought slavery erected than monuments to those who defended it torn down. Put a statue of the 'Rock of Chickamunga' near every Lee monument in Virginia. I'm sure other suitable people & subjects can be found in other former Confederate states.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • #40
                      Eric,

                      Thanks for bringing that great article to the group. Completely agree with the groups sentiments.

                      and he's basically forgotten today, unless you happen to be a Civil War nerd. sad, really.

                      Hey! Are you speaking about me!?!??!


                      Pete

                      You nailed it regarding PGT Beauregard. His statue should have stayed but the interpretation should have been updated.

                      There are just so many who have allowed the images and flags of the ACW to be co-opted by racists organizations.

                      And then you have these knuckleheads....showing up with Confederate flags at the Sam Houston monument !!!! Houston hated the idea of the Confederacy, was a staunch Union man and was dead set against secession!


                      http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/11...d-protest.html
                      “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                      Mark Twain

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                        Pete

                        You nailed it regarding PGT Beauregard. His statue should have stayed but the interpretation should have been updated.

                        There are just so many who have allowed the images and flags of the ACW to be co-opted by racists organizations.

                        And then you have these knuckleheads....showing up with Confederate flags at the Sam Houston monument !!!! Houston hated the idea of the Confederacy, was a staunch Union man and was dead set against secession!


                        http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/11...d-protest.html
                        Buck,

                        That Houston one is all kinds of stupid. Trying to remove the statue of the man is absurd. Protesting while carrying a flag he explicitly reflected is absurd squared.

                        It really is idiot season. Too many people who just cant get the f**k over themselves, get educated and accept a world where imperfect or even bad people do good things and where historical actors exist in their own space rather than as something you hitch to your own little political bandwagon.

                        SIGH!
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                        • #42
                          Don't know if any of you guys follow Twitter...I'm all over that.

                          On the topic of the Lost Cause I recommend Kevin Levin's blog:

                          http://cwmemory.com/blog/

                          I also recommend Dr. Brooks Simpson.

                          https://cwcrossroads.wordpress.com/
                          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                          Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            some more history Twitter dug up, but makes for very good reading.

                            WEB Du Bois on Lee.

                            https://twitter.com/NathanJRobinson/...6112418865152?
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Saw that earlier last week.

                              Nailed him to a T.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

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