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What if America Had Remained Part of the Crown?

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  • #91
    Could have ended different. The excuse to get rid of Edward was Simpson even though the reason was Edward's pro-Nazi stance. I don't know if the US would have sided with Edward but I do know that the US would be the ultimate veto on the throne ... just as Canada lead the voice of the Dominions against Edward.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by tankie View Post
      The manpower and recources were very welcomed , but i dont see how it would have stopped WW11 from occuring . And once again the UK had to be bailed out for not listening to the war drums from across the water being beaten by the Bohemian Cpl .
      If WW1 had ended sooner, without the humongous loss in lives, then the Versailles treaty might not have been so harsh, and the Germans might not have been so susceptible to the Bohemian Cpl.
      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by gunnut View Post
        If WW1 had ended sooner, without the humongous loss in lives, then the Versailles treaty might not have been so harsh, and the Germans might not have been so susceptible to the Bohemian Cpl.
        My thoughts exactly...

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        • #94
          Originally posted by gunnut View Post
          If WW1 had ended sooner, without the humongous loss in lives, then the Versailles treaty might not have been so harsh, and the Germans might not have been so susceptible to the Bohemian Cpl.
          Maybe , G/N , maybe .;)
          .

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Strompy View Post
            Would have abolished slavery 50 years earlier and would be much like Canada, I guess.
            hardly, the official end of slavery in the British Empire was 1833, 30 years before the Emancipation Proclamation and 32 years before it was outlawed in the US. However that is not the whole truth-effective slavery continued among certain groups like tea farmers in India where the tea plantation owners borrowed fugitive slave laws from the American South and wages such as they were could hardly be called such and continued well past the end of WWI. In the Caribbean where most official slaves existed, the 1833 act was back doored when the planters introduced an "apprenticeship" that amounted to the same thing. Even after that backdoor was closed on smaller islands like Antigua and Barbados the lack of land and jobs meant the planters where the only work in town and wages such as they were could hardly be called that.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by gunnut View Post
              If WW1 had ended sooner, without the humongous loss in lives, then the Versailles treaty might not have been so harsh, and the Germans might not have been so susceptible to the Bohemian Cpl.
              2 million more lives to waste in 1914-16 would not have made much of a difference. Haig was still in command after all, and if Haig couldn't kill you nothing could.

              Perhaps ominously, the fact that America was a crown possession might have steered Germany into even more heavy reliance on domestic and European food sources prior to the war resulting in an even bigger chemical industry, one capable of building shells and making fertilizer.

              Even more ominously, the Victorian era belief that the Dominions served as a source of raw materials and a market for finished good would have retarded the expansion of American industry (shipping, chemicals, armaments, textiles etc) and banking both far more valuable than a couple of million men. Without America as the arsenal of democracy the Allies might well have sued for peace after the failure Haig and his French counterparts to achieve breakthrough. Everything America provided would have to be made up by British industry or there would be shortages. Without 1.6 million shells in a week how many more would have died at the Somme? If the offensives have to be spaced even a little bit farther apart how much can German industry narrow the gap and her soldiers rest?

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              • #97
                well, to begin with, with the US a crown colony i doubt there would have been a "world war 1" or "world war 2" (at least as we know it) to start with, let alone haig.

                not sure if the french revolution would have been pulled off without an american one first. if so, not sure if napoleon would take part. if napoleon did, then there would be no way he'd sell french possessions in america to a burgeoning british crown colony, which might have sparked an european fight in the early-mid 1800s.

                of course the big thing is no french revolution --> no napoleon --> nationalism is not such a big force in the 19th century. that means prussia and a bunch of small german statelets as opposed to unified germany, austria-hungary bumbles on as does royalist (perhaps reformed) france.

                ironically the british empire might have expanded more slowly as they concentrated on america rather than india.

                in short, a very long 18th century outlook. mass mobilization would take longer to form, as would democratic traditions and norms that were established by the founding fathers. america would probably be less settled than today, as british restrictions against colonists rather than manifest destiny would slow down movement into the interior.
                There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by astralis View Post
                  well, to begin with, with the US a crown colony i doubt there would have been a "world war 1" or "world war 2" (at least as we know it) to start with, let alone haig.

                  not sure if the french revolution would have been pulled off without an american one first.
                  What about an American revolution that ends up with the peace deal? Until July 1776 the war could have been settled with seats in Parliment and the right to govern its own taxes.

                  The enlightenment thinkers were already making an impact in France where the 4th estate seethed with unrest.

                  if so, not sure if napoleon would take part. if napoleon did, then there would be no way he'd sell french possessions in america to a burgeoning british crown colony, which might have sparked an european fight in the early-mid 1800s.
                  America seizes it during the Napoleonic wars instead of fighting the British in 1812.

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                  • #99
                    zraver,

                    What about an American revolution that ends up with the peace deal? Until July 1776 the war could have been settled with seats in Parliment and the right to govern its own taxes.

                    The enlightenment thinkers were already making an impact in France where the 4th estate seethed with unrest.
                    the american example was watched closely by many of the thinkers in france, including the reformers whom were hoping for a constitutional monarchy, not a republic. the path to robespierre's madness probably wouldn't have been replicated twice, especially not if a moderate solution had been reached in the americas.

                    America seizes it during the Napoleonic wars instead of fighting the British in 1812.
                    don't think america would have seized the whole thing...and if they had seized large portions of it, the british probably would have traded it away at the peace table for a stronger bargaining chip at home or in the carribeans. the british viewed the continental US as a relatively poor backwater- they viewed the carribeans as where the real wealth was in the new world.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      zraver,



                      the american example was watched closely by many of the thinkers in france, including the reformers whom were hoping for a constitutional monarchy, not a republic. the path to robespierre's madness probably wouldn't have been replicated twice, especially not if a moderate solution had been reached in the americas.
                      maybe, but the French system had become so strained by the social immobility and centralizing of the Kings Power following the Sun King's breaking the nobles that a civil war was almost inevitable.

                      don't think america would have seized the whole thing...and if they had seized large portions of it, the british probably would have traded it away at the peace table for a stronger bargaining chip at home or in the carribeans. the british viewed the continental US as a relatively poor backwater- they viewed the carribeans as where the real wealth was in the new world.
                      Did the British trade back Canada? The West Indies were profitable but not nearly as much as North America. The Indies provided sugar and rum. North America provided a market for finished goods. The 3 million Americans were a critical cog in the British economy.

                      As for seizing all of it, with the defeat of Napolean, the French and Spanish claims were up in the air historically, Span could not hold on to Mexico or Latin America. The war as it were would have seen Americans march into Florida and Louisiana die by the bushel load from disease and take the territory anyway. The French/Spanish simply did not have the resources to hold them against any type of determined effort.

                      The real race, developing some what later, would have been between Mexico and the US much like it did develop driven more by population and checked by the slow growth of the same expansion than anything else. With slavery outlawed in the 1830's by the crown the there would have been no US civil war. The North would have sided with the crown automatically on the slavery issues and the South dependent as it was on British imports would have been forced to go along with it and the planters would have received compensation like the West Indies planters did. The injection of a couple million black freedmen would have done a lot to drive people west as would the lack of factories to soak up excess labor in the cities.

                      The Indians get screwed, but they've been doomed since Columbus got a buzz in his ear about India. The one big thing is the lack of immigration from Europe unless the Crown encouraged such to fill up the vast American spaces.

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