Thread: Are Historians Now Overstating the Role of the U.S.S.R. in defeating Nazi Germany?

Originally Posted by Tanker

Yes, I'm finding it a laugh a minute. Like I said, most people that come to these forums to debate one topic or another come armed with information so they can eviscerate the guy making the claims. If links I have posted are not to your liking you are more than welcome to find more that will eviscerate me. Stuka's flew some 7000 sorties during the Battle of Sevastopol. The average loss was a Stuka a day. I would say that they had no natural predators. If they were being culled at 5 or more a day then I would say they have an issue. Yes I have given you the best possible info yet you do not want to look at it. That's YOUR problem. As for the Bf-109 many were used in the close ground support role and had the Rustsatz weapons packages...which were nothing more than field mods of regular gear designed to do something else. Like the Flying Mortar. When I read that the Bf-109 was used as a ground attack aircraft then its role as ASF changes.

Rudel has a tank kill record of 519 tanks as stated above.

Bergström, Christer. Stalingrad - The Air Battle

The Stuka Terror

Maybe you have a source that will correct me? I have no issues being wrong and no issues apologizing for having the wrong info but I do take exception to people who beg for the correct info while adding nothing to the conversation.

I'm not interested in 'eviscerating' your sources. The fact that you are thinking is such terms is passing strange. This is a discussion forum, not a gladiatorial bout. I'm trying to ascertain just how reliable a source you are. If you make a claim is it factually based or are you just waxing lyrical? So far when challenged you either refuse to give an answer or you give an answer that is so limited in its scope as to not address the original issue. Making a statement of absolutes about tank kills & then retreating to 'the figures are unreliable' is not an answer. Neither is repeating how many tanks Rudel killed. Neither tell me if the majority of tanks were killed from the air or not. You made the statement, it seems s a simple enough request on my part for you to either back it up or admit that it was made in error.

I don't doubt that you are better informed than me, but that doesn't mean I don't get to question you about what you claim. You seem to think it does.

Oh, and as for the bolded statement, bollocks. A quick trawl back through the thread shows that not to be the case, Clackers was contributing, he just disagreed with you .

it is interesting to note: Rudel was not typical in any way, the next most effective German pilot destroyed 60 tanks. If it is true that he destroyed 519 tanks, that is nearly nine times more than anyone else.

Originally Posted by USSWisconsin

it is interesting to note: Rudel was not typical in any way, the next most effective German pilot destroyed 60 tanks. If it is true that he destroyed 519 tanks, that is nearly nine times more than anyone else.

Rudel was a propaganda figurehead, USSWisconsin. Whatever his actual skills or achievements, anyone quoting the number of 519 (including books) will simply be repeating his own claims.

There's not a chance he, his unit, or anyone else, verified that number against enemy records, and we simply can't trust those numbers the way, for instance, we trust that Joe di Maggio hit safely in 56 consecutive games in 1941.

Originally Posted by Tanker

Yes, I'm finding it a laugh a minute.

I'll say nothing of your claims that you're a sarcasm genius, or that everyone else is lazy, Tanker.

But with all your evading, do you still believe aircraft were responsible for most T-34 knock outs?

Originally Posted by clackers

Rudel was a propaganda figurehead, USSWisconsin. Whatever his actual skills or achievements, anyone quoting the number of 519 (including books) will simply be repeating his own claims.

There's not a chance he, his unit, or anyone else, verified that number against enemy records, and we simply can't trust those numbers the way, for instance, we trust that Joe di Maggio hit safely in 56 consecutive games in 1941.

I don't intend to support his claims - I have no idea how his claims stack up to his actual tally. He was unusually decorated, so his superiors clearly believed he was special (I understand this may be because he was selected for propaganda purposes) - I find his Knights Cross decoration very interesting, with Gold Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds... The Gold Oak Leaves addition specially created in his honor. But I also understand he was a hardcore Nazi through and through, thus supporting and participating (perhaps indirectly) in some of the most vicious deeds in history. His post war politics show he was more than a soldier doing his duty - he firmly believed in the diabolical principles and objectives of Hitler's Third Riech. I don't support or admire him as a man - I just find him interesting, Hitler was interesting too. I admire Joe di Maggio, I don't feel much of anything about Rudel beyond my interest in military history.

One very significant point about these figures is that if we remove the 11 900 AFVs received by the Soviets via Lend Lease, and allocate all German WWII fully tracked AFV production to the Wehrmacht’s East Front forces (i.e. add those lost fighting the Western Allies), then the Germans would have only needed kill loss ratio of 2.45 to 1 in order to have destroyed all Soviet fully tracked AFVs that existed on 22nd June 1941 (23 300 AFVs) and all 99 150 fully tracked AFVs produced during the war (122 450 AFVs). This figure is well below the 2.94 to 1 kill-loss ratio historically achieved. These figures demolish another more recently fashionable myth relating to the East Front; specifically that the Soviets (largely due to the huge number of T-34s produced) could have won WWII without any input from the US or Commonwealth forces. This is before we even consider the effects of increased German production (of all weapon types) due to the absence of Allied strategic bombing, the direct effects of German air superiority on the East Front from 1943 onwards, the effects of the Red Army loosing over half its motorised transport, and the effects of 9-10 000 additional (and fully supplied) heavy 88mm flak guns on the East Front from 1941 onwards.

Operation Barbarossa: T-34 Myth Buster

Originally Posted by clackers

Rudel was a propaganda figurehead, USSWisconsin. Whatever his actual skills or achievements, anyone quoting the number of 519 (including books) will simply be repeating his own claims.

There's not a chance he, his unit, or anyone else, verified that number against enemy records, and we simply can't trust those numbers the way, for instance, we trust that Joe di Maggio hit safely in 56 consecutive games in 1941.

Ok. Let us approach this from the standpoint of facts.

The Ju-87 G carried two 37 mm Flak 18 guns.

What is the capability of the German 37mm Flak 18 gun?

What is the thickness of the armor on the top of a T-34?

at which angle the bomber dives on the tank ?
60 deg = certain penetration.
45 deg = penetration possible
30 deg = unlikely penetration of the hull top

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Ok. Let us approach this from the standpoint of facts.

The Ju-87 G carried two 37 mm Flak 18 guns.

What is the capability of the German 37mm Flak 18 gun?

Each BK-37 gun pod carried a 12 round magazine.