Are Historians Now Overstating the Role of the U.S.S.R. in defeating Nazi Germany?

**Tanker** · 03 Feb 12,, 22:47

Originally Posted by USSWisconsin

Those Ju-87's would have been fodder on the Western front - with P-51's (or most any allied fighters - Spitfires or P-38's too, and P-47's would make even more holes) flying around shooting them full of holes

The eastern Front was the only Place the Stukas had no predators.

**Tanker** · 03 Feb 12,, 22:48

Originally Posted by 1979

despite the efforts of aces like Ruddell, the tank busting aircraft was not very cost effective, generally they lost one ju-87 for every tank destroyed.

btw i got the year wrong , it was early 44 not 43.

Didn't matter, they were still being built and they were running 500 a day at one point.

**1979** · 03 Feb 12,, 23:31

Originally Posted by Tanker

Didn't matter, they were still being built and they were running 500 a day at one point.

that means 1.5 sorties per aircraft /day
3 bomber wings means 9 groups or 27 squadrons totaling 324 aircraft.

**Tanker** · 04 Feb 12,, 02:44

Originally Posted by 1979

that means 1.5 sorties per aircraft /day
3 bomber wings means 9 groups or 27 squadrons totaling 324 aircraft.

Rudel in one claim states numerous sorties in a day.

**Officer of Engineers** · 04 Feb 12,, 04:43

Originally Posted by Tanker

Rudel in one claim states numerous sorties in a day.

How many of them were misses? Once bomb release, they lose visual lock and all they see is some smoke. They may or may not have hit the tank.

The only thing for certain was that German tanks and AT guns were damned busy.

Edit: I found this reference, I do not know its accuracy ... but ...

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...a-topic./page8

The Stuka could do 30m CEP in Experten hands, although in regular hands it might be closer to 100m CEP.

If true, this was not the tank killer the German birds purpotted to be.

**Bigfella** · 04 Feb 12,, 05:32

Originally Posted by Tanker

The eastern Front was the only Place the Stukas had no predators.

Really? Might have been true in '41 & '42, but by 1943 Stukas were being predated fairly effectively, leading to the loss of a good many experienced pilots. I believe Rudel himself was shot down some 30 times.

**1979** · 04 Feb 12,, 07:44

Originally Posted by Tanker

Rudel in one claim states numerous sorties in a day.

He had to, the number of operational Bomber aircraft in 1942 was between 31% and 66 %.

**1979** · 04 Feb 12,, 08:08

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

How many of them were misses? Once bomb release, they lose visual lock and all they see is some smoke. They may or may not have hit the tank.

The only thing for certain was that German tanks and AT guns were damned busy.

Edit: I found this reference, I do not know its accuracy ... but ...

If true, this was not the tank killer the German birds purpotted to be.

It is true, the early dive bomber versions were not tank hunters.
the cannon armed version in which Ruddel rack up most of his kills lack the dive brakes ,
ie not a dive bomber but assault aircraft.

**Tanker** · 04 Feb 12,, 14:35

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

How many of them were misses? Once bomb release, they lose visual lock and all they see is some smoke. They may or may not have hit the tank.

We do not know. I have talked to several German vets (one a former King Tiger commander) who never claimed to miss anything. One was on the Eastern Front and claimed every one of his 200 panzerfaust rockets hit Soviet T34s. As a former US Army tanker and TC I can say that I have missed several engagements myself but I know guys that won't even talk about a plywood miss.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The only thing for certain was that German tanks and AT guns were damned busy.

Yep, the failure for many retreating german soldiers, Armor, and other items not having enough ammo to cover a withdrawal was proof of that.

**USSWisconsin** · 04 Feb 12,, 15:06

It must have been a terrible thing for the German soldiers, facing an unending prosession of Soviet tanks - and shortages of everything they needed to deal with them. Even as they killed them in large numbers, they just kept coming... I understand that they fought bravely, but in the end numbers won - and the Soviets were really pissed - they wanted revenge.

**1979** · 04 Feb 12,, 15:25

Originally Posted by USSWisconsin

Those Ju-87's would have been fodder on the Western front - with P-51's (or most any allied fighters - Spitfires or P-38's too, and P-47's would make even more holes) flying around shooting them full of holes

Schlachtgeschwader 103 operated a mix of fw-190 and ju-87 during Overlord.

**USSWisconsin** · 04 Feb 12,, 16:31

Originally Posted by 1979

Schlachtgeschwader 103 operated a mix of fw-190 and ju-87 during Overlord.

How many sorties did the Stuka's fly during overlord? I have read that the Allies had massive air superiority and the Germans only flew a few missions, while the FW-190's were viable in this battle - I find the idea of Stuka's succeeding in this campaign to be contradictory to what I have heard.

German control during World War IIUnder Luftwaffe control, the airfield was initially used as a night interceptor fighter base, with Nachtjagdgeschwader 4 (NJG 4) flying Messerschmitt Bf 110s and later RADAR-equipped Dornier Do 217s against the night attacks by the Royal Air Force on German targets.[3] In 1943, a dive bomber school, Schlachtgeschwader 103 (SG 103) was established at the base, training pilots with Arado Ar 96 advanced trainers; Focke-Wulf Fw 190Fs, and Junkers Ju 87s.[3]

The school closed in February 1944; the night fighters were reassigned in May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metz-Fr...g_World_War_II

http://www.ww2.dk/

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/sg103.html

**1979** · 05 Feb 12,, 00:12

Between 6-30 june 44 the LW did 13.000 sorties, how many were by Sg-103 let alone by ju-87 I do not know.
The Stukas took off generally at dusk. as was the case at Caretan on june 10, to avoid the allied fighters.
Bert Wilder is credited with a ju-87 around Chartres on 6.6.1944. http://www.cieldegloire.com/014_marshall_b_w.php

**Dreadnought** · 06 Feb 12,, 23:19

IMO, Considering the amount of lives that Russia lost in those battles and since they were primarily focused on Germany instead of Japan, I would be of the assuption that they are not overstating their importance. IMO, Russia was important all the same.

**clackers** · 07 Feb 12,, 02:20

Originally Posted by Tanker

No wait Page 134-138 10,000 T34's were "flattened". Hows that?

You need to get better books, Tanker.

I honestly don't know why you'd believe, for example, the uncorroborated claims of Rudel.

Exaggeration by gunners and pilots - of all nations - is notorious. Particularly that self-promoter.

Check this out for mythbusting:

Opeartion Barbarossa: Aircraft vs Armour WWII

Perhaps 5% of the Soviet tanks lost in the target rich environment of Kursk were destroyed from the air. The RAF pilots in Normandy overclaimed by a factor of 25!