Originally Posted by jlvfr
I haven't read it, but The Last Drop is suppose to be a decent read on the subject.
Know that one, but also read some reviews and didn't like what I saw. These stated that the american section was very slim and the book is broken up by nationality and by glider/parachute and not in chronological order. Not a very good way of describing a battle...
Lookie here, Mr. Clackers, you need to calm down a little. Maybe I do too.
First, your comments about whether I am a member of the religion of Global Warming. I am not. I subscribe neither to its tenets nor its sacraments, but you are free to worship at the recycling center of your choice. I don't care. You want to lock horns with me on that issue, take it to one of the gazillion threads we have on that subject in the Science section here.
Second, Gabriel is mostly right. I see the Valkyrie guys as way too little, way too late. And as far as the German "resistance"; for the ones who actually did things that they could, great - my hat's off to them. But the military guys? The guys arguing about which method was the best method to carve up Poland, France, Africa, Greece, the USSR, etc.? And the guys who pulled triggers and drove trucks and laid commo wire for 'em in places that were not within the 1939 borders of Germany?
F*ck 'em all. Each and every one. Hard.
And that's why I said what I said. In my book, you can't make a Nazi or "poor little Whermacht lad" a hero, and I won't support efforts that try to do so. You're clearly welcome to, and I hope you enjoy it.
-dale
Oh, I don't think you let either history or science get in the way of your preconceptions, Dale. Your personal emails (which I won't quote to the public) to me indicated a lack of the latter, your views in this thread a lack of the former.
But I am glad to see you now acknowledge the efforts of the non-military German resistance, like religious trade union leaders executed after the July 20 plot.
We can just hope that in time you will also recognize the efforts of a clumsy, unrealistic, outnumbered, divided, fearful group of relatively low-ranking officers who lost their lives as a result of Valkyrie. Out of the two hundred or so names on the list I provided you, I can't think of any who would have faced war crimes investigations ... perhaps Canaris ... he must have ordered interrogations of prisoners ... but he probably also worked with British intelligence to try to end the war.
Geez, you're still banging on about this? What personal emails? I sent you emails? When? Why? Do you mean PMs? I can check those I guess. And if you are the kind of person that believes "same data, different conclusion, must be stupid" then bombs away, I hope you have lots of friends that tell you you're smart.
And who cares what I acknowledge or not? My original statement is based on the "can't polish a turd" concept (Mythbusters notwithstanding!) and you can't: a Nazi or his tools were scum. The civilian Germans who voted in and supported the Nazis were scum. You like 'em, you worship 'em. End of story.
-dale
People, please.
Let's all have a can of beer or a glass of wine and talk civily.
All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
-Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.
I'm being quite civil to a gent who's called me stupid.
-dale
No, I haven't said stupid, Dale ... but I do think you need to learn from Triple C's own posting on this very topic, which displays the kind of attention to nuance that goes with having a more balanced view:
Who was the better commander?
and if you imagine I'm 'easy' on the German officer corps as a whole, you couldn't be further wrong. Check out my posts on that very topic, which include the acceptance of systematic bribes by the Field Marshals from Hitler to 'look the other way':
If Stauffenberg had killed Hitler on July 20th 1944
I. Don't. Care.
In my opinion the German people were all complicit in the crimes and atrocities of the Nazis, just as the Japanese people were complicit in the crimes and atrocities of the IJA and IJN. Individual acts that may have occurred are exceptional and don't really concern me much, if at all. A nice Nazi was still a Nazi. A German who thought that Hitler was bad for Germany was no better than a deeply committed Nazi who Nazied around in his boots and leather panties.
Where were the general strikes? Where was the general uprising? Where were the mass refusals to enlist?
And if Stauffenberg had killed Hitler all he would have set in motion was an attempt to stop fighting in the West in order to keep fighting in the East. If you want to view that as heroic I can't and won't stop you.
But I will never, ever agree with you.
-dale
9,500 posts of this sort of material must be entertaining reading ... real Archie Bunker, cartoon character stuff!
Oh, don't be such a dick.9,500 posts of this sort of material must be entertaining reading ... real Archie Bunker, cartoon character stuff!
-dale
okay, enough, gents. any more and i'm closing the thread.
The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"
-Leo Tolstoy
War and Peace
Apologies, Astralis.
And clackers, seriously, come to one of the climate threads we have going in the Pub/Science section and we can discuss that topic there.
-dale
On German resistance to Hitler...
Between 1933 and 1945 more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps or prison for political reasons,and approximately 77,000 Germans were killed for one or another form of resistance by Special Courts, courts martial, and the civil justice system. Many of these Germans had served in government, the military, or in civil positions, which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy while involved.
Although there was only one public demonstration against the Nazis...From Wiki..
There was only one public manifestation of opposition to the Nazi persecution of the German Jews, the Rosenstrasse protest of February 1943, sparked by the arrest and threatened deportation to death camps of 1,800 Jewish men married to non-Jewish women. Before these men could be deported, their wives and other relatives rallied outside the building in Rosenstrasse where the men were held. An estimated 6,000 people, mostly women, rallied in shifts in the winter cold for over a week. Eventually Himmler, worried about the effect on civilian morale, gave in and allowed the arrested men to be released. Some who had already been deported and were on their way to Auschwitz were actually brought back. There was no retaliation against the protesters, and most of the Jewish men survived the war.
This incident was remarkable both for its success and its uniqueness, and again raises the question of what might have happened if more Germans had been willing to protest against the deportations.
But on the other hand I wonder if leading plotters like Stauffenberg, Beck, Stülpnagel, Falkenhausen, Hoepner, Fromm etc, would have tried anything if the war hadn't taken a turn for the worst like gabriel mentioned, plus some seem to have very dirty hands.
Wiki says Stauffenberg and his regiment took part in the attack on Poland. He supported the occupation of Poland and its handling by the Nazi regime and the use of Poles as slave workers to achieve German prosperity as well as German colonization and exploitation of Poland.
He was urged early on to participate in a coup against Hitler. Stauffenberg declined, reasoning that all German soldiers had pledged allegiance not to the institution of the presidency of the German Reich, but to the person of Adolf Hitler, due to the Führereid introduced in 1934, he was impressed by the early overwhelming military success, which was attributed to Hitler.
After the setback at Moscow, & apparent deficiency in military leadership (Hitler had assumed the role of supreme commander in late 1941 after sacking Hoepner and others), finally convinced Stauffenberg in 1942 to sympathize with resistance groups.
Beck basically supported Hitlers idea that once Germany was sufficiently rearmed, the Reich should wage a series of wars of aggression that would establish Germany as Europe's foremost power, and place all of Central and Eastern Europe into the German sphere of influence, he had no moral objections, he just disagreed with how Hitler went about it.
Stülpnagel in Russia signed many orders authorizing reprisals against civilians for partisan attacks and closely collaborated with the Einsatzgruppen in their mass executions of Jews.
Fromm, though he was aware that some of his subordinates - most notably, Stauffenberg, his Chief of Staff, were planning an assassination attempt, remained quiet. When the assassination attempt failed, Fromm reacted by ordering the execution of those conspirators he knew.
While serving as military governor Falkenhausen's administration published 17 decrees against the Jewish population of Belgium as preparatory measures leading in June 1942 to the Final Solution and the deportation of 28,900 Jews.
he was sentenced to 12 years hard labour for deporting 25,000 Jews and executing Belgian hostages.
Although Hoepner always opposed Hitler & Nazism, it was only after Operation Barbarossa had stalled at Moscow and his humiliating sacking by Hitler, that he became active again, many of them served with him in the invasion & carnage of the East.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote
Share this thread with friends: