Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Battle of Jutland: Could Germany win

  1. #1
    Regular
    Join Date
    14 Feb 05
    Location
    windsor ontario canada
    Posts
    67

    Battle of Jutland: Could Germany win

    In WWI Germany's navy was only 20% percent less strong than the RN, during the Battle of Jutland do you think that the Germans could have won and if so what would be the effects? In my opinion they could have because of armour and accuracy was better plus guns could fire farther.

  2. #2
    Patron
    Join Date
    13 Jun 06
    Posts
    223
    No chance, in this battle their T was crossed twiced by the British. They were at a tactical disadvantage when they engaged the Grand Fleet.

  3. #3
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,721

    Post

    IMO The Brits at Jutland were still having problems with faulty cordite for their turrent guns causing sudden magazine explosions after being hit by german shells and sinking several british battlecruisers. And in my opinion their battlecruisers were very poorly armored (not to mean poor armor just not an adequate amount as the germans had used in their ships) turrent housings and poor deck armor to protect from plunging shells in which they could not withstand the beating the german cruisers could.

    * The germans fire accuracy was also far better the British train of fire. Tiger Warrior and Black Prince for instance were hit 21 times. Although Tiger didnt sink she was towed back after the battle. Warrior and Black Prince were not as fortunate as well as Battlecruisers Queen Mary and Indefatigable (only being hit 5 times). This is not a complete list of damage only an example.

    * The Germans sunk more ships then the Brits but the Brits accomplished one major goal... The High Seas fleet never went to see again until interned at Scapa Flow and scuttled.

    * The Germans lost roughly one third the sailors that Britan lost during the battle.

    P.S. *The Seydlitz was an excellent example of the survivability the High Seas fleet possesed at Jutland due to superior armor placement and quantity.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 13 Jun 06, at 18:37.

  4. #4
    Patron
    Join Date
    13 Jun 06
    Posts
    223
    You have to look at both navy's objectives.

    The German navy wanted to set a trap and destroy PART OF the Grand Fleet in order to balance the numbers. The British intercepted the mission and created a trap within a trap.

    Basically Jutland consists of 3 phases:
    1.) British BC with the 5th Fast battleship squadron chasing the German BC south. The German battle cruisers are heading straight for the High seas fleet. Germans wanted to lure these ships into the killing zone for the rest of the High Seas Fleet.

    2.) The German High seas fleet chasing the British BC north towards the entire Grand Fleet. The Germans thought there plan had worked perfectly.

    3.) The High Seas Fleet colided with the British Grand Fleet, which immediately capped their T. Their was no way out of this trap, all the superior engineering, training, etc could not win the German Fleet out of this position. They had no choice but to retreat. The German admiral reversed course within 30 minutes, in order to get back into the fight, but the results were the same.

    The German Fleet escaped at that night.

    In this type of warfare, when your T is crossed, you cannot win. You have to retreat or be destroyed. It doesn't matter how well your armor or how accurat your gunnery is. It's a matter of mathematics: forward guns on your lead ships cannot match the full broadside of your enemy.

  5. #5
    Contributor pdf27's Avatar
    Join Date
    05 Jun 06
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    520
    Quote Originally Posted by IDonT
    In this type of warfare, when your T is crossed, you cannot win. You have to retreat or be destroyed. It doesn't matter how well your armor or how accurat your gunnery is. It's a matter of mathematics: forward guns on your lead ships cannot match the full broadside of your enemy.
    Furthermore, errors in range in Naval gunnery have always been bigger than errors in line. Thus, you're more likely to miss firing at a ship broadside on to you than you are firing at one pointing at you.
    Personally I think the Germans were rather lucky to escape in the night like they did. Had any one of half a dozen things happened and they would have hit the heavy forces rather than the light screen they broke through. That wouldn't have been good for them.

  6. #6
    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
    Join Date
    10 Apr 04
    Location
    You would like to know would'nt you?
    Posts
    1,497
    I think if you mean by win that the HSF could destroy the BGF, then no. But if you mean be in a poistion to challenge for control of the NOrth Sea, then yes.
    "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

  7. #7
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    27 Jan 06
    Location
    DPRK, Demokratik People's Republik of Kalifornia
    Posts
    22,736
    Why didn't the Germans try again to break the blockade?

  8. #8
    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
    Join Date
    12 May 05
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA.
    Posts
    14,721
    Quote Originally Posted by IDonT
    You have to look at both navy's objectives.

    The German navy wanted to set a trap and destroy PART OF the Grand Fleet in order to balance the numbers. The British intercepted the mission and created a trap within a trap.

    Basically Jutland consists of 3 phases:
    1.) British BC with the 5th Fast battleship squadron chasing the German BC south. The German battle cruisers are heading straight for the High seas fleet. Germans wanted to lure these ships into the killing zone for the rest of the High Seas Fleet.

    2.) The German High seas fleet chasing the British BC north towards the entire Grand Fleet. The Germans thought there plan had worked perfectly.

    3.) The High Seas Fleet colided with the British Grand Fleet, which immediately capped their T. Their was no way out of this trap, all the superior engineering, training, etc could not win the German Fleet out of this position. They had no choice but to retreat. The German admiral reversed course within 30 minutes, in order to get back into the fight, but the results were the same.

    The German Fleet escaped at that night.

    In this type of warfare, when your T is crossed, you cannot win. You have to retreat or be destroyed. It doesn't matter how well your armor or how accurat your gunnery is. It's a matter of mathematics: forward guns on your lead ships cannot match the full broadside of your enemy.
    Agreed, The majority of the ships involved in the Battle of Jutland were not designed to fire their forward guns at range dead ahead. Grant it could be done if need be a few salvos however the forward damage and buckling that results would certainly mean refits after the battle. Better to withdraw and spare your ships then push a bad position as in having your "T" crossed and walk into a hail of gunfire. No offense to the Brits but those Germans knew how to build cruisers that could withstand a great amount of damage and still limp home.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 16 Jun 06, at 13:51.

  9. #9
    Patron
    Join Date
    13 Jun 06
    Posts
    223
    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut
    Why didn't the Germans try again to break the blockade?

    They did try but were unsuccessful. The bulk of the Royal Navy was stationed in Scapa Flow, which guard the northern exit of the North Sea. The other exit is the English Channel.

    Partly because the Kaiser ordered to to risk his precious and expensive dreadnaught in a battle with the Royal Navy until there is parity in numbers. The german fleet was relegated to using it battle cruisers to shell the English coast. There were a couple of cases where the Royal Navy tried unsuccessfully to set up a trap and destroy them, the culmination of this was the Battle of Dogger Bank.

    JUtland was basically the same scenario but greater. The Germans thought, after the battle of Dogger Bank, to set a trap for the Royal NAvy battlecruiser squadron using its battlecruisers as bait. The battlecruisers would bring them south to the waiting High Seas fleet.

    Unfortunately for them, the RN intercepted their plans and put in a trap of their own. The BC fleet would chase german BC until they make contact with the High Seas fleet, then race north to bring the High Seas Fleet into battle with the Grand Fleet. This is what exactly happened, most of the British ships that were lost happened during the chase south. With their T crossed twiced, and outnumbered, the High Seas fleet had to escape.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Bloodiest Battles in History
    By sparten in forum Ancient, Medieval & Early Modern Ages
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 07 Jun 08,, 05:29
  2. Carrier Battle Group Essay
    By rickusn in forum Naval Warfare
    Replies: 56
    Last Post: 05 Sep 07,, 17:27
  3. Articles and links for the Military Professional
    By Officer of Engineers in forum The Staff College
    Replies: 115
    Last Post: 20 Nov 06,, 15:28
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05 Nov 06,, 14:42
  5. Could Germany Win WWI
    By stratadmir in forum The World Wars
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 29 May 05,, 00:33

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •