Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Hitler ordered kidnapping of pope

  1. #1
    Ubi dubium ibi libertas Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    04 Sep 03
    Location
    Boston, MA, USPRA
    Posts
    4,789

    Hitler ordered kidnapping of pope

    Report: Hitler ordered kidnapping of pope
    Catholic newspaper says Nazi officer did not carry out plot
    Reuters
    Updated: 4:17 p.m. ET Jan. 15, 2005

    Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler gave one of his generals a direct order to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War Two but the officer did not obey, Italy’s leading Roman Catholic newspaper reported Saturday.

    Avvenire, which is owned by the Italian Conference of Roman Catholic bishops, said new details of the plot had emerged in documents presented to the Vatican in favor of putting the controversial wartime Pontiff on the road to sainthood.

    Elements of alleged plots to abduct the Pope during Germany’s occupation of Italy have already emerged in the past from some historians, but Avvenire’s full-page report said its details were new.

    Avvenire said Hitler feared the Pope would be an obstacle to his plans for global domination and because the dictator wanted to eventually abolish Christianity and impose National Socialism as a sort of new global religion.

    The newspaper said a plot that was codenamed Operation Rabat had originally been planned for 1943 but was not carried out that year for unspecified reasons.

    It said that in 1944, shortly before the Germans retreated from Rome, SS General Karl Friedrich Otto Wolff, a senior occupation officer in Italy, had been ordered by Hitler to kidnap the Pope.

    According to the newspaper, Wolff returned to Rome from his meeting with Hitler in Germany and arranged for a secret meeting with the Pope. Wolff went to the Vatican in civilian clothes at night with the help of a priest.

    The newspaper said Wolff told the Pope of Hitler’s orders and assured him he had no intention of carrying them out himself, but warned the Pontiff to be careful “because the situation (in Rome) was confused and full of risks.”

    Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini had already fallen and set up a German-backed puppet regime in northern Italy. The German occupation of Rome was in its dying days. Allied forces were advancing on the capital, which they liberated on June 5, 1944.

    As a test of Wolff’s good faith, Pope Pius asked for him to free two Italian resistance leaders who had been condemned to death. Wolff arranged for them to be released, the paper said.

    Sainthood cause
    Avvenire said the details of the plot are in testimony Wolff gave before he died in Germany to Church officials accumulating evidence to back efforts to have Pius eventually made a saint.

    But the reports of Hitler’s contempt for Pius have contrasted with other versions by historians and authors who have depicted Pius as being pro-German and have accused him of intentionally turning a blind eye to the Holocaust.

    The Vatican’s procedures to put Pius on the road to sainthood have not been slowed or shelved despite concerns from Jews, and they will enter a new phase in March when Vatican historians will begin discussing many volumes of documentation.

    The Vatican maintains that Pius did not speak out more strongly because he feared it would worsen the fate of Catholics and Jews, and that he worked behind the scenes to save Jews.

    Pius’s pontificate has been one of the trickiest problems in post-war Catholic-Jewish relations.

    In 1998, there was widespread Jewish discontent with a Vatican document called “We Remember, a Reflection on the Shoah,” which effectively absolved Pius of accusations that he facilitated the Holocaust by remaining silent.

    But the current pontiff, Pope John Paul, has strongly defended Pius and once called him “a great Pope.”
    Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

    URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6830236/
    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

    NEVER FORGET

  2. #2
    Military Professional
    Join Date
    05 Nov 04
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    801
    once the vatican decides to start the beautification process, do they ever stop it? when was the last time someone got so far down the saintliness road and was then stopped because they didn't quite measure up?

    effectively what i'm asking is will pius xii become a saint precisely because he's so controversial? that if he becomes a saint all debate will end - which is very definately in the church's interest.

  3. #3
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    12 Aug 03
    Location
    Long Island, New York, USA
    Posts
    2,726
    How exactly would this mission have gone down? Would they just storm the Vatican outright and cart him away? Would they do it covertly dresses as priests, Vatican employees, etc?

  4. #4
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    28 Nov 04
    Location
    The Great Southern USA, Georgia
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by dave angel
    once the vatican decides to start the beautification process, do they ever stop it? when was the last time someone got so far down the saintliness road and was then stopped because they didn't quite measure up?

    effectively what i'm asking is will pius xii become a saint precisely because he's so controversial? that if he becomes a saint all debate will end - which is very definately in the church's interest.
    You just like slamming everyone don't you. The Vatican(wether you are Catholic or not) is a very respectable body. Pope Pius XII would probobly become a saint because of his extensive underground work to free Jews and help wounded Allies ect... Think about it. What he did was very brave. His country had a white line around it and just outside it was the army from hell waiting to devour his country and his people. He may be contraversial but IMO he was a very noble man.
    "Our citizenship in the United States is our national character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the world. Our great title is AMERICANS…" -- Thomas Paine

  5. #5
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    28 Nov 04
    Location
    The Great Southern USA, Georgia
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisF202
    How exactly would this mission have gone down? Would they just storm the Vatican outright and cart him away? Would they do it covertly dresses as priests, Vatican employees, etc?
    Probobly covertly to avoid a stink. Those Swiss guards are no pushover though. I have read about them. They are trained as extensivly as the US special forces and are well armed and equiped. I always thought this was funny because they look like buffons in their clown outfits.lol.
    "Our citizenship in the United States is our national character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the world. Our great title is AMERICANS…" -- Thomas Paine

  6. #6
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
    Join Date
    03 Aug 03
    Posts
    7,294
    "The Vatican maintains that Pius did not speak out more strongly because he feared it would worsen the fate of Catholics and Jews, and that he worked behind the scenes to save Jews."

    Yeah he really helped those jews...

  7. #7
    Bandaid Military Professional
    Join Date
    04 Oct 04
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,815
    There was nothing saintly about Pope Pius XII. Had he been actively involved in saving lives of people destroyed by war, then he would'nt have had the safe sanctity of the Vatican. The Nazis would have had him killed.
    The fact that he lived through all that without harassment shows that he just walked the tightrope to keep the Vatican free of facist and Nazi troops.
    That does not make him a saint. People like Mother Teresa are saints, and they don't require the church to declare it, in their hearts, the people worship her as one.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  8. #8
    Military Professional
    Join Date
    05 Nov 04
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    801
    it wasn't that was particularly slagging of pius XII, i was just asking whether its process that ever says no.

    if i wanted to slag down pius XII i could use the very large numbers of proven incidents of anti-semitism that the HRCC was guilty of during his period as pope, like the abduction of jewish children, their 'baptisement' and the churches refusal to return them to their parents or the fact that until a papal bull in the 1960's it was official church policy that jews drank the blood of christian sacrifices. moreover, the idea that in such a deeply catholic country as italy the pope could not of escaped to either southern italy under allied occupation or to jerusalem during the earlier years is laughable. i'm not saying the the pope was a nazi, and many catholics provided the stuanchest of its opponants, but to suggest that the popes resistance to the evil of nazism is comparable to the works of mother theresa or even oskar schindler or the british diplomat frank foley is absurd.

  9. #9
    Bandaid Military Professional
    Join Date
    04 Oct 04
    Location
    India
    Posts
    4,815
    dave
    All I'm stating is that Pope Pius XII does not deserve sainthood. (I'm roman catholic).

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  10. #10
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    28 Nov 04
    Location
    The Great Southern USA, Georgia
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by troung
    Yeah he really helped those jews...
    Judging from your post in other threads I am aware that you are a little reading/logic challenged but read my last post. I said that Pius had created extensive underground networks through the Vatican to save jews and wounded allies. If Hitler had found out the Vatican would have been obliterated and Pius probobly killed. The Vatican is no good to anyone if its a pile of rubble. Read the book the "scarlet and the black" it will help you understand exactly what the vatican did at this time.
    "Our citizenship in the United States is our national character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the world. Our great title is AMERICANS…" -- Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Senior Contributor
    Join Date
    28 Nov 04
    Location
    The Great Southern USA, Georgia
    Posts
    963
    Quote Originally Posted by lemontree
    All I'm stating is that Pope Pius XII does not deserve sainthood. (I'm roman catholic).
    I am currently a nonpracticing Roman Catholic. I don't have an opinion of Pius' sainthood. This is for people smarter then me to decide.
    "Our citizenship in the United States is our national character. Our citizenship in any particular state is only our local distinction. By the latter we are known at home, by the former to the world. Our great title is AMERICANS…" -- Thomas Paine

  12. #12
    EPA
    EPA is offline
    Patron
    Join Date
    24 Feb 05
    Location
    Indiana by a beach on Lake Michigan where you can see Chicago skyline.
    Posts
    153
    Yes, i get that to i well my grandma is pure AUstrian or Hungarian Slovak

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Iran: Hitler was a Jew
    By Ray in forum World Affairs Board Pub
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 26 Jan 07,, 23:46
  2. Replies: 30
    Last Post: 26 Dec 06,, 23:51
  3. Pope asks Muslims to fight terror
    By SloMax in forum International Politics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 23 Aug 05,, 20:33
  4. Italian Judge Orders Arrest of 13 CIA Operatives for Kidnapping
    By Hari_Om in forum Operation Iraqi Freedom/Operation New Dawn
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02 Jul 05,, 07:58
  5. New Pope Is Benedict XVI
    By Karthik in forum International Economy
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 27 Apr 05,, 13:39

Share this thread with friends:

Share this thread with friends:

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •