Thread: Bomber Command question

Well, from two guys that were there:

"We are going to scourge the Third Reich from end to end. We are bombing Germany city by city and ever more terribly in order to make it impossible for her to go on with the war. That is our object, and we shall pursue it relentlessly."

— Arthur "Bomber" Harris, RAF.

"From now on we shall bomb Germany on an ever-increasing scale, month by month, year by year, until the Nazi regime has either been exterminated by us or — better still — torn to pieces by the German people themselves."

— Prime Minster Winston Churchill, 14 July 1941

Old Winston sure had a way with words.

I can't find the quote right now, but I remember reading an interview with Bomber Harris that was conducted during the war. When it was pointed out to him that only one bomb in ten dropped at night was getting within a mile of its target, he said something to the effect that even if he killed a housewife who's only contribution to the war effort was to make a sandwich for a factory worker, it was a strike at the enemy.

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

What were Bomber Command and the USAF trying to do with their mass night bombing campaign against Germany?

The Americans were the day bombers and the British were the night bombers. Operations could be conducted round the clock giving the enemy little respite from raids. Bear in mind that the Americans didn't begin operations until 1942, and these were initially small scale. The Norden bomb sight was claimed to drop a bomb into a pickle barrel (and the public was encouraged to believe that). One USAF general described the allied bombing as "The British area bombed with precision, and the Americans precision bombed wide areas".

"The primary objective of Bomber Command will be the progressive destruction and dislocation of the German military, industrial and economic system aimed at undermining the morale of the German people to the point where their capacity for armed resistance is fatally weakened."
Air Marshal Sir Arthur 'Bomber' Harris

A little article on the bomber war i googled a while back

LeMay and Harris the “objective” Exemplified

Bolo,

Great link with your post. Thanks.

Bill

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

What were Bomber Command and the USAF trying to do with their mass night bombing campaign against Germany?

1) Reduce Germany's war machine supplies and since they had such heavy AA weaponry around particular cities the night raids improved bomber survival rates.

2) Terrorize the German public and therefore bleed the German economy through housing,medical,emergency services and so fourth. Also the possibility of the German people taking to the streets or protesting at Hitlers assemblies and create disention.

Just my opinion.
Thanks

In Albert Speer's memoirs, "INSIDE THE THIRD REICH,"
he writes an entire chapter on the Allied bombing effort. Chapter 20 is titled simply "Bombs." The book is an interesting view inside the Third Reich. This chapter 20 documents the results of The Allied bombing effort and in it, he points out what he considers one of our strategic mistakes. When interviewed by the General Staff of the Royal Air Force in 1946, he was asked what would have been the results of concerted attacks on the ball-bearing industry.

His reply from the interview as recorded in his book on page 283:

"Armaments production would have been crucially weakened after two months and after four months would have been brought completely to a standstill.

This, to be sure would have meant:

One: All our ball-bearing factories (in Schweinfurt, Steyer, Erkner, Cannstatt and in France and Italy) had been attacked simultaneously.

Two: These attacks had been repeated three or four times, every two weeks, no matter what the pictures of the target area showed.

Three: Any attempt at rebuilding these factories had been thwarted by further attacks, spaced at two-month intervals."

In short, we quit too early in our focused campaign against German war industry. There is much more in chapter 20 and the whole book about the Allied bombing effort. It's a great read if you get a chance to pick it up. And the old boy isn't collecting royalties on it anymore if that were a concern.

Originally Posted by GAU-8

Bolo,

Great link with your post. Thanks.

Bill

No problem, remember google is your friend

here's another one i dug out a while back mainly useful for seeing the horrific casualty rates suffered by the aircrew

NOTE Best viewed with screen realization 1024 x 768,

Originally Posted by GAU-8

"Armaments production would have been crucially weakened after two months and after four months would have been brought completely to a standstill.

This, to be sure would have meant:

One: All our ball-bearing factories (in Schweinfurt, Steyer, Erkner, Cannstatt and in France and Italy) had been attacked simultaneously.

Two: These attacks had been repeated three or four times, every two weeks, no matter what the pictures of the target area showed.

Three: Any attempt at rebuilding these factories had been thwarted by further attacks, spaced at two-month intervals."

Hmmm....sort of a "For lack of a nail the shoe was lost,for lack of a shoe the horse was lost....etc." Very interesting....thanks Bill,yet another book I now have on my seemingly endless list to read.....:P ) .

Originally Posted by Shamus

Hmmm....sort of a "For lack of a nail the shoe was lost,for lack of a shoe the horse was lost....etc." Very interesting....thanks Bill,yet another book I now have on my seemingly endless list to read.....:P ) .

Bolo,

Another good link, thanks. Chapter 27 of the paper is just what this thread needs. Yes, Google is our friend. I'm trying to use your first link to hunt down a book I lost years ago, "General Kenny Reports." If I find it through your link, I'll buy you a cold one.

I stumbled across some stats yesterday concerning the loss of airmen versus soldiers in WW2. The high fatality rate versus the rate of wounded was shocking. I don't think many people realize this. From your link: 110,000 Allied airmen killed over Germany to 35,000 taken prisioner. Not good odds.

Shamus,

"Fore lack of a nail..." indeed. After reading Speer's memoirs, I was amazed at how long the Germans were able to stay in the war. By all accounts, they should have thrown in the towel far earlier. And ah yes, "the endless list." I'll never live long enough to read them all.

Silent Hunter

You've been silent since starting this. What were/are you trying to bring our attention to with your thread's question? I ask because I've run into many revisionist types over the years that point out that the Allied bombing campaigns didn't hurt the Germans and Japanese in proportion to the cost--so therefore, we must have just done it out of spite. I never bought into that line of thinking. It was one way of many to strike back and we used it.

And we were pissed off.

It's only been 5 and a half hours- I was out for two and a half.

I was watching Foyle's War last night, which had this as background. I was wondering whether the RAF were trying to destroy the German war machine or the German cities as their highest priority.

I'm trying to understand stuff like Dresden and Hamburg better.

I note the huge death rate among Bomber Command personnel and I want to know what I should think of them. They were clearly very brave people.

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter

It's only been 5 and a half hours- I was out for two and a half.

I was watching Foyle's War last night, which had this as background. I was wondering whether the RAF were trying to destroy the German war machine or the German cities as their highest priority.

I'm trying to understand stuff like Dresden and Hamburg better.

I note the huge death rate among Bomber Command personnel and I want to know what I should think of them. They were clearly very brave people.

They certainly were brave.

The link on Bolo's last post is excellent. Especially the final chapter of the paper. If you Google "Bomber Harris," you'll be on a good start. I'm sure if the RAF and USAAF had the ability to destroy the German war machine, they would have. With the technology of the day, the best they could do was whittle it down over time. Dresden was a turning point in the minds of the British. In the aftermath of Dresden, they did a lot of soul searching. I've yet to read any accounts of the same type of self examination in the U.S. after the fire bombing of Tokyo.

Thanks for starting the thread. This is a good point of inquiry.

Originally Posted by GAU-8

Bolo,
I stumbled across some stats yesterday concerning the loss of airmen versus soldiers in WW2. The high fatality rate versus the rate of wounded was shocking. I don't think many people realize this. From your link: 110,000 Allied airmen killed over Germany to 35,000 taken prisioner. Not good odds.

You crash in a plane or you bail out and live. Not much else is possible.

I think the main problem was the pre-war focus on bombing was on the theory of assault (which was perfectly fine and true) as in the affects it could have, rather than the actual problems that would be faced; accuracy, defenses etc.

I seem to remember it was because of the "Bomber will always get through" pre war doctrine. This meant no long range fighter escorts were developed to sheperd the bomber fleets, greatly increasing losses.

On a related topic- how was the ball turret gun on the B-17 moved by it's operator.

(I'm watching Memphis Belle ATM. Is the guy who played Samwise Gamgee in this?)