Yegoyan

Funny same image is found in the Human rights council website its sad that they will go that low, use other peoples images and claim there Turks.

Armenian Genocide, Armenian Massacres, Ottoman Empire, Government of Turkey

xerxes

Jesus, five pages of arguing, and yet no one heeded my very balanced view and points.

__________________
If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

Officer of Engineers

Let me guess. You're single.

__________________
Chimo

xerxes

What do you mean by that ...

Officer of Engineers

It means that you don't know when logic and balanced views mean nothing against a stubborn will just to be right.

xerxes

I see, fair enough, ... and yes I am single

Officer of Engineers

There are times when shutting up will end the argument alot sooner than being right.

neyzen

Very objective web site. I liked their "turkish denial machine" t-shirts. Do they price reduction for group buyings?

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/ima...-pic-front.jpg

Triple C

I do not question your integrity, but confronting history, especially one's own, is a tough thing. It requires you to question everything you have been told as a youth by people who you are supposed to trust--teachers, governments, and as and adult, your national leaders, media, political leaders.
We are not here to insult you or your country; here as historians we are interested in the truth.

The objections you raised about Turkey's genocide over the Armenians were not supported by evidence, and you did not critically evaluate your own' government's claims. For example, if it is a crime to insult Turkishness (such as supporting the theory of the existance of the Armenian Genocide), then how can you trust Turkish professors and government institutes to say the truth?

The genocide itself is testified by numerous foreign dispaches, Christian missionaries, diplomats of all nations--including Germans and Austrians, allied with Turkey in a war against Britain, France, later America. Are you saying that all of them are lying? While the Americans later joined the war against Turkey, what motives or agendas could the German and Austrian military attache and diplomats have in reporting wide scale repression and killing of Armenians? At the same time Morgenthau was conducting a truth finding mission in the Armenian territories, Talat fired off telegrams to local commanders to "hide the bodies!"

There was wide scale reporting of the massacre. The sites Turkish offiicials designated for population re-location or settlement centers, a legitimate counterinsurgency tactic at the time, were waterless deserts and wastelands that could not possibly support human life. And that was from Turkish archives. Christian missionaries reported excess of every kind, including killing, looting, and raping. Yes, they are missionaries, and the victims are Christians--but does that make all missionary liars? What motive can the missionary possibly have in propogating this myth, if the massacre had not happened, since it will jeopardize their relations with the government, on whose pleasure they stay in Turkey?

Finally there was NO US conspiracy to fabricate a genocide. A significant numbers of US Congressmen at the time were very much opposed to signing or creating anti-genocide law codes in the international realm, because they were deathly affraid of implicating America in lynching the blacks and wiping out the American Indians.

To say that the genocide does not exist involves a willful denial of the truth. I can understand why you do not admit to it, because this shatters certain national myths about Turkey. I have similiar experiences learning about the extermination of native Americans when I arrived to the states, because I have always had an image of America being a good, moral nation. The fact the Americans--and other more advanced states--readily admit their past misdeeds, show that they are at least trying to come into terms with their history. While I do not in any way condone terrorism, the Armenians had been treated in a horrible manner in Turkish history was a fact. By understanding their grievances, your government will make great leaps in pacifying them.

__________________
ORBIS NON SUFFICIT.

xerxes

To be fair the Armeniean mistreatment goes well beyound Turkish history and its goes back to the early days of Christianity. Armeniea was the first Christian nation in the world, and after Rome embraced Christianity, the presence of Christian Armeniea became unbearable to the Eastern Enemy, at that time the Sassanides Persians. Measures were taken by the Great Kings. and if today the year was 650 AD, I assume there would much venom against the 'Eastern Enemy', but sadly for the Turks the year is 2007 where the last 'Eastern Enemy' were the Ottomans. As a easterner I am not blind to the venom against the Turks, knowing that 'Eastern Enemy' had rotated many times and at one point was my own nation was one. Therefore, I think IMHO that people's hostility against Turks and their nation is a contributing factor that forces them in this genocide denial thing or genocide justification thing as I call it. Genocide justification or its denial is wrong. I think what Turks should do is not to justify or to deny it, but go the way of Germans. That being said, I, an easterner can also see that had the religion of the Armeniea and Turks were different than what it was, the Armeniean genocide today would not much of problem. An example would be what would the autocratic Tsar of All Russians do to its muslim subjects in similiar circumstances. This is how the Turks should approach the question. Denial is dead wrong. Justifying is dead wrong. However, admiting the blackmark and then drawing parallel to other nation history in order to lower the venom against them is the right path to go, mesathinks. We are all here either amateur historians or pro historians. and the job is clear ==> no justification of genocide because of Turkish national pride, while at the samething no biasness and venom against Turkish people, just because they happen to be the last 'Eastern Enemy'.

Big K

@Triple C,

i am a little bit busy right now due to the organisation job of our dealer network meeting. so i didnt ignored you dont take it wrong. i'll answer all.

@Xerxes,

i appreciate your statements about the "eastern enemy" if you look at my early posts i mentioned and intimated this many times. we can easily give the exemple of French Genocides in Algeria.

When a Turkish journalist asked about French Genocide in Algeria Mr. Chirac sad "ooo this is a issue for historians. we have nothing to do with this. just leave it to the historians."....

you see the double standards?? they have! to create an enemy to motivate their own people...nowadays they are doing this using Islam...

by the way, so called genocide is totally opposing to our Nations character. we never did such thing anytime anywhere...

soon i'll show some arguments about these "neutral sources" like US...theres a decision taken by US Congress to found an Armenian State in the area. all have planned, the budget, the protection with US sodiers etc.
all before 1914...

i just need some time...

__________________
I'm not willing to remain silent even there will be no effect when i say.

zraver

Guys,

the United States of America and the Ottoman Empire where never at war. In fact Wilson refuses any mention of the Turkish state in his speach, but he does make clear that the US will only make war on those who make war on the US.

I have said nothing of the Governments allied with the Imperial Government of Germany because they have not made war upon us or challenged us to defend our right and our honour. The Austro-Hungarian Government has, indeed, avowed its unqualified endorsement and acceptance of the reckless and lawless submarine warfare adopted now without disguise by the Imperial German Government, and it has therefore not been possible for this Government to receive Count Tarnowski, the Ambassador recently accredited to this Government by the Imperial and Royal Government of Austria-Hungary; but that Government has not actually engaged in warfare against citizens of the Unites States on the seas, and I take the liberty, for the present at least, of postponing a discussion of our relations with the authorities at Vienna. We enter this war only where we are clearly forced into it because there are not other means of defending our rights.

First World War.com - Primary Documents - U.S. Declaration of War with Germany, 2 April 1917

Australia
Entered war together with Britain on 4 August 1914

Austria-Hungary
Declared war with Serbia on 28 July 1914
Declared war with Russia on 6 August 1914
Declared war with Belgium on 28 August 1914
Declared war with Portugal on 15 March 1916

Belgium
Invaded by Germany on 3 August 1914

Bolivia
Severed relations with Germany on 13 April 1917

Brazil
Severed relations with Germany on 11 April 1917
Declared war with Germany on 26 October 1917

Bulgaria
Declared war with Serbia on 14 October 1915
Declared war with Romania on 1 September 1916

Canada
Entered war together with Britain on 4 August 1914

China
Severed relations with Germany on 14 March 1917
Declared war with Germany on 14 August 1917
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 14 August 1917

Costa Rica
Severed relations with Germany on 21 September 1917
Declared war with Germany on 23 May 1918

Cuba
Declared war with Germany on 7 April 1917

Ecuador
Severed relations with Germany on 8 December 1917

France
Invaded by Germany on 2 August 1914
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 12 August 1914
Declared war with Turkey on 5 November 1914
Declared war with Bulgaria on 16 October 1915

Germany
Declared war with Russia on 1 August 1914
Declared war with France on 3 August 1914
Declared war with Belgium on 4 August 1914
Declared war with Portugal on 9 March 1916

Greece
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 27 June 1917
Declared war with Bulgaria on 27 June 1917
Declared war with Germany on 27 June 1917
Declared war with Turkey on 27 June 1917

Guatemala
Declared war with Germany on 23 April 1918

Haiti
Declared war with Germany on 12 July 1918

Honduras
Declared war with Germany on 19 July 1918

Italy
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 23 May 1915
Declared war with Turkey on 21 August 1915
Declared war with Germany on 28 August 1915
Declared war with Bulgaria on 19 October 1915

Japan
Declared war with Germany on 23 August 1914
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 25 August 1914

Liberia
Declared war with Germany on 4 August 1914

Montenegro
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 5 August 1914
Declared war with Germany on 8 August 1914
Declared war with Bulgaria on 15 October 1915

New Zealand
Entered war together with Britain on 4 August 1914

Nicaragua
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 8 May 1918
Declared war with Germany on 8 May 1918

Panama
Declared war with Germany on 7 April 1917
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 10 December 1917

Peru
Severed relations with Germany on 6 October 1917

Portugal
Entered war against Germany on 9 March 1916
Entered war against Austria-Hungary on 15 March 1916

Romania
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 27 August 1916
Exited war with Treaty of Bucharest on 7 May 1918
Re-entered the war on 10 November 1918

Russia
Declared war with Turkey on 2 November 1914
Declared war with Bulgaria on 19 October 1915

San Marino
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 3 June 1915

Serbia
Declared war with Germany on 6 August 1914
Declared war with Turkey on 2 November 1914

Siam
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 22 July 1917
Declared war with Germany on 22 July 1917

Turkey
Declared war with Romania on 30 August 1916
Severed relations with United States on 23 April 1917 <--- is not a declaration of war

United Kingdom
Declared war with Germany on 4 August 1914
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 12 August 1914
Declared war with Turkey on 5 November 1914
Declared war with Bulgaria on 15 October 1915

United States of America
Declared war with Germany on 6 April 1917
Declared war with Austria-Hungary on 7 December 1917
<----- No war declaration vs the Ottomman Empire

Uruguay
Severed relations with Germany on 7 October 1917

zraver

The Armenian Question and American-Turkish Relations, 1914-1927
Robert L. Daniel
The Mississippi Valley Historical Review, Vol. 46, No. 2 (Sep., 1959), pp. 252-275
doi:10.2307/1891527
This article consists of 24 page(s).

if you have access to the Jstors data base that is a great read but it is 24 pages

Big K

i still look for some sources but look what i found!

Taner Akcam IS a FUGITIVE!!!

he was a Communist...1975-1976 he was the editor of "revolutionary youth", a communist (DEV-GENC) magasine...

in 1976 he was arrested and condemned to the prison for 9 years.

he escaped in 1977 from prison and gone to Germany as a refugee while he was a fugitive!!!! (btw. another exemple of our valuable! ally Germany!!)

while he was a fugitive hes started to wrok at "Hamburg Social Instıtute"

and look whos paid for!!!! Mr. Taner Akcam is working for Minnesota University!!!

yes a very credible source for justification....

a fugitive,
a criminal ,
an old communist (Bluesman can i re take your thoughts about communism?),
says there was so-called a genocide and you believe?

on the other side there was Mr. Stanford J.Shaw
in 1977 hes house been swaddled, bombed, menaced by death unknown!!!! people....

why??

because he sad in 1977 that so called Armenian Genocide did never happened...

and he normally move to Turkey...because Armenian diaspora is very strong all over Europe and US.

Rest in Peace Mr. S.J.Shaw

BTW, zraver declaring war is not needed to act hostile...

remember the "Wilson Principles", according to these principles US Congress helped these Armenian bandes, supply them with money and arms...

and you are trusting these sources:

a fugitive and an old communist,

an old ambassadors memorys written by his ARMENIAN secretariat and Ministry
of Foreign Affairs of USA which was supporting these Armenian bands...

German Officers...same Germany which was Ally with Turkey has accepted a fugitive and never returned back...

like Belgium who is also an Ally in NATO!!! and the same Belgium saved Fehriye Erdal a PKK Terrorist, a bloody killer, and shes missing now!!!

ooo i forgot the Abdullah Ocalan....PKK's head...hes captured in Greek Embassy in Etiopya!!!!!!!!

yes with these kind of allies we dont need enemys...

deadkenny

Yes, well amazing how that can happen when your population gets slaughtered in it's homeland in a genocidal campaign by Turks.