Kansas Bear

Twelve Ways to Deny a Genocide

By Gregory H. Stanton

1. Question and minimize the statistics

2. Attack the motivations of the truth-tellers.

3. Claim that the deaths were inadvertent

4. Emphasize the strangeness of the victims

5. Rationalize the deaths as the result of tribal conflict

6. Blame “out of control” forces for committing the killings

7. Avoid antagonizing the genocidists, who might walk out of “the peace process.”

8. Justify denial in favor of current economic interests

9. Claim that the victims are receiving good treatment

10. Claim that what is going on doesn’t fit the definition of genocide

11. Blame the victims

12. Say that peace and reconciliation are more important that blaming people for genocide

deadkenny

The OFFICIAL OTTOMAN figures for 1867 were 2.4 million Armenians in the Empire. So what you haven't addressed, and continue to evade, is the issue of what happened to half of the Armenian population between 1867 and 1914, if the figure you quote for 1914 is correct? What happened to 1.2 million Armenians in the Ottoman Empire?

Kansas Bear

Just to set the information straight, both Stanford Jay Shaw and Justin McCarthy are "paid" historians. The Turkish Government has paid them money to form their "opinions".

Stanford Jay Shaw:
He completed the work for another master’s degree, this time in Turkish and Islamic history, from Princeton University . He then moved with his wife to Turkey, and became professor of Ottoman and Turkish history in Ankara’s Bilkent University from 1999 until his death. Shaw received medals from the president of Turkey.

Justin McCarthy:His Post-Doctoral Certificate is from the "Office Of Population Research" at Princeton University.

zraver

Elements of the Crime of Genocide

Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide (For full text click here)

"Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

(d) Attempt to commit genocide;

(e) Complicity in genocide. "

It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.

Punishable Acts The following are genocidal acts when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence:

Killing members of the group includes direct killing and actions causing death.

Causing serious bodily or mental harm includes inflicting trauma on members of the group through widespread torture, rape, sexual violence, forced or coerced use of drugs, and mutilation.

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

Prevention of births includes involuntary sterilization, forced abortion, prohibition of marriage, and long-term separation of men and women intended to prevent procreation.

Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years.

Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and transfer of children are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence.

The law protects four groups - national, ethnical, racial or religious groups.

A national group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by a common country of nationality or national origin.

An ethnical group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common cultural traditions, language or heritage.

A racial group means a set of individuals whose identity is defined by physical characteristics.

A religious group is a set of individuals whose identity is defined by common religious creeds, beliefs, doctrines, practices, or rituals.

Key Terms

The crime of genocide has two elements: intent and action. “Intentional” means purposeful. Intent can be proven directly from statements or orders. But more often, it must be inferred from a systematic pattern of coordinated acts.

Intent is different from motive. Whatever may be the motive for the crime (land expropriation, national security, territorrial integrity, etc.), if the perpetrators commit acts intended to destroy a group, even part of a group, it is genocide.

The phrase "in whole or in part" is important. Perpetrators need not intend to destroy the entire group. Destruction of only part of a group (such as its educated members, or members living in one region) is also genocide. Most authorities require intent to destroy a substantial number of group members – mass murder. But an individual criminal may be guilty of genocide even if he kills only one person, so long as he knew he was participating in a larger plan to destroy the group.

Other Information:

Kofi Annan's April 7, 2004 Action Plan to Prevent Genocide On the 10th anniversary of the 1994 Genocide In Rwanda, Annn announced his Action Plan and announced the future appointment of a Special Advisor on Genocide Prevention.

Kofi Annan's Stockholm Genocide Prevention Proposals, January 26, 2004 In Stockholm, Sweden on January 26, 2004 UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan calls for parties to the Genocide Convention to establish a Genocide Prevention Committee

Ratification Status: 135 Nations are parties to the Genocide Convention, but 52 Nations are NOT, including Indonesia, Japan, Nigeria.

Article II was included without change in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as Article 6 and also in the the Statutes of the International Criminal Tribunals for Rwanda and former Yugoslavia.

For a more detailed description of the crimes described in Article II (Rome Statute Article 6) see the Elements of the Crime of Genocide agreed upon by the International Criminal Court Preparatory Commission in June 2000.

Over 70 nations have made provisions for the punishment of genocide in domestic criminal law, sometimes modifying the legal definition. Prosecution of genocide in domestic courts is becoming more frequent.

The legal definition of genocide can be compared to five alternative definitions of genocide proposed by researchers and scholars Frank Chalk & Kurt Jonassohn, Israel Charny, Helen Fein, Barbara Harff & Ted Gurr and Steven Katz.

neyzen

Ok. Tell us what should we do to prove "Armenian Genocide" is a myth? I'll do it. You can prove me "Armenian Genocide" by showing the evidences which were proven by various reliable sources. No more Taner Akçam, Orhan Pamuk drivels. Zraver's post explains what genocide is. Please start with "as such", intent of "Armenian Genocide".





BTW, shame on you. Read your number 2 again. Remember his words when we discuss Turkish/Azeri Genocides...

Kansas Bear

Yeah, when your own countrymen turn on you, you have to wonder what the truth really is.

Let's be real, 1)it's illegal in Turkey to say the Armenian Genocide happened, 2)the "historians" that say the AG didn't happen are funded by Turkey and use Turkish "documents" to support their "claim", 3)some of Turkey's own historians admit the AG occurred.

Now, since No 1 makes any claim a nice trip to a prison, just exactly do you think MOST Turks are going to say, "I like prison food"??

Unfortunately, most Turks get all emotional(angry, hateful, make sockpuppets, resort to personal attacks, etc) when the AG is mentioned/discussed.

Should you read Morgenthau's memoirs? Are they allowed in Turkey?
Should you read Seyed Mohamad Ali Jamalzadeh? Are his writings allowed in Turkey?
From the information I can find, I'd say "no".

Realize where you are(Turkey). And realize that the law makes it illegal to admit the AG occurred. In that type of atmosphere do you REALLY believe you can find an unbiased source of information in regards to the AG??
So with these examples, what should people think?


To quote your "buddy", Big K's source, since he thought it proved the AG didn't happen...
Since the Ottoman government did make detention camps, and did enact forcible relocation, that shows "intent".

Shame on you for trying to change the subject.

neyzen

I don't wonder what the truth really is, I wonder what agenda they try to create is. Taner Akçam lives abroad with Armenian support. Orhan Pamuk is not a historian, he is writer and he said nothing valuable on so called Armenian Genocide. And it turns "Turkish intellectual Orhan Pamuk said ...." I wonder this and I wonder why you guys need to use such persons for your demagogic drivels, if the truth is there... Your new mission, Kansas Bear, should you decide to accept it, is telling me what Orhan Pamuk said on so called Armenian Genocide and its importance. Btw, unlike Armenia many different cultures from many ethnics still lives in Turkey. (you still don't say me what happend to others in Armenia) My brother (look family man, not only my countryman) was DHKP-C (commie) member. He bombed Toprak Bank's ATM. He got prisoned. It doesn't change the reality for me.

If it is illegal to say co called Armenian Genocide did occur and if there are many Turkish historians who said AG did occur, there should be many historians in turkish prisons. Can you pls give some of thems name? ... Turkish documents used to open to everybody and they are still open to everybody. Armenians or any other countries historians used to analyse them and they still can.

So? How would your this paragraph help to topc?

BÜYÜKELÇÝ MORGENTHAU'NUN ÖYKÜSÜ - büyükelçi morgenthau'nun öyküsü What is this then?

Realize that there were many symposiums on issue in Turkey (what about Armenia?) where no one prisoned (or you'll tell opposite with names) and we are using same board. I believe you will find for me the unbiased evidences.

You should show the intent of genocide in relocation. Where is it? I am still waiting for it.

I don't try to change subject. I am sure you will jump to Turkish/Azeri Genocide topics which I plan to open. I said don't forget it. Btw, the subject is " Armenian Genocide, did it happen?" not turkish legal system, not turkish reaction to issue... Of course you can use others' words but please don't say "look turks said that..bla bla said this" or something like demagogic. It doesn't help you to prove something, just make me sick.

Kansas Bear

Actually he's a historian and teaches, you have proof of Armenian support?

Which begs the question why he was charged with a crime by the Turkish government.


"Demagogic drivels" like McCarthy, Shaw, Lowry......




Apparently you have problems reading.......



And this has what to do with the topic?? You're equating 1915 with 1990. Is this how you think?



Are you telling me that people HAVEN'T been charged with a crime when stating the AG did occur? Whether they're historians or not, they're still being incarcerated. Why don't you show a Turkish newspaper where it states that the Armenians were slaughtered and massacred with the knowledge of the Ottoman government. That should work.


Here's a question, if these "documents" are there why hasn't any of these paid "historians" contrasted and compared them with the German and Austrian consular transcripts and attempted to address those? Since the consular reports(German & Austrian) are received from throughout the vast Ottoman Empire and to believe it was some conspiracy is pure fantasy.

Just because certain people get so upset over all this and respond as mentioned doesn't mean everyone else reacts the same way. Some people's emotional responses are the definition of a demagogue.



So you've read it then? Does it contain this:

And IF you've read this, then what's the problem? You do realize he was receiving reports from American missionaries stationed around the Empire, don't you?


This falls back on the, "do you let the accused, of a crime, sit as the judge", quandary.

Again?
Mentioning the "turkish legal system" or "turkish reaction to issue" is not demagogic. The more you Turks use that word, the more it appears you have NO understanding what it means.

demagogue;def,to treat or manipulate (a political issue) in the manner of a demagogue; obscure or distort with emotionalism, prejudice, etc.


If using non-Turkish, non-Armenian sources to find evidence about the AG is demagogic/prejudical, why would ANY Armenian or anyone want to read "Turkish documents"??

See, by the simple use of words you and your "compatriots" have shown themselves to be prejudiced against ANY evidence, whether it's armenian(which I don't use), American, British(Big K's thread on Brit propaganda!!), German, Austrian, Persian, or otherwise.

Just EXACTLY where do you want the evidence to originate from?

neyzen

Maybe Zoryan Institute supports Taner Akçam. I don't really care about it. You don't get my point. Use what ever sources you like. Find evidences which are proven by various sources and prove genocide. It should be easy for you because you are sure about it. That's all. Prove the genocide, don't tell stories.


------------------------------------------------
Bonus:

Charging Orhan Pamuk was pure idiotism. It helped you (isn't it?), it helped him (Nobel Prize) but not Turkey... He wasn't prisoned. Most important part is he didn't say "Armenian Genocide did occur." as you can see it in Orhan Pamuk quote you have did. Your other hero Taner Akçam prisoned for being member of Revolutionary People's Liberation Party-Front - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He says "Armenian Genocide" did occur and he writes his articles about issue in Radikal which is one of famous newspaper of Turkey. You can find them in Radikal-çevrimiçi / He is not jailed in his visit of Turkey. I ask again who are jailed/found guilty in Turkey? Pls give the names like: Doğu Perinçek--> He punished in Switzerland because he said "Armenian Genocide" did not occur...

Karibi's "Red Book of Georgia" I think it was written in 1920. Good source isn't it?
----------------------------------------------------

Don't care bonus part if you don't want it. But pls show me the intent on so called Armenian Genocide.

Some tips: Armenians were allowed to use train for relocation. In terms of serious illness Armenians condition were not far worst than Turkish civilians and Turkish soldiers. Re location was canceled after bandit attacks. And guilties were hanged. Your genocided people attacked again to Turkish civilians and army after relocation. Under french army uniforms in Antep, Urfa, Marash and during greek occupation in western Turkey. I can find relocation law, the money that Ottoman Emp. spend for relocation, taken cautions... etc

Kansas Bear

IF Turkey allows his literature, I honestly advise you to read his book. IF what he has written is true, you might be surprised by the information. I know I was.

Amazon.ca: A Shameful Act : The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility: Books: Taner Akcam



When reading various sources that compliment each other one has to ask just HOW it isn't true.


Isn't that what the Turkish documents are all about? Proving that the AG DIDN'T happen.

Yeah, the statement, "......a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares to talk about it." Means he was talking about accidental deaths caused by choking on chicken bones!!

Maybe you shouldn't rely on wikipedia so much, since people of questionable integrity edit garbage onto it's pages..

After receiving a 10-year prison term for producing a student journal that focused on Turkey’s treatment of the Kurdish minority, Akçam was declared a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International in 1976 and eventually granted asylum in Germany.
Montreal Mirror - News
Library : "Authors, Artists & Friends" Series : Taner Akcam





He who?

So? Switzerland also imprisons those that deny the "Holocaust". So according to YOUR logic the Holocaust didn't occur.

Orhan Pamuk WAS charged. Incarcerated or not.

Among them was Dink, editor of the Armenian weekly Agos, who was given a six-month suspended prison sentence on 7 October 2005 for writing a series of articles about “Armenian identity.” He was prosecuted again on 18 July 2006 four days after an interview with Reuters news agency about his prison sentence for “insulting Turkishness” in which he used the word “genocide” about the Turkish massacres of Armenians in 1915. He faces a new prison sentence of three years.
Reporters sans frontières - Turkey - Annual report 2007

Last year, Hrant Dink was prosecuted for the third time on charges of “denigrating Turkishness” under Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. Amnesty International called for the repeal of that law and condemned his prosecution as part of a pattern of judicial harassment against him for peacefully expressing his dissenting opinion. Hrant Dink had already been given a six-month suspended prison sentence in July 2006 following an October 2005 conviction on charges of “denigrating Turkishness”.
Turkey: Turkish-Armenian journalist murdered - Amnesty International

......was often critical of both Turkey's denial of the Armenian Genocide, and of the Armenian diaspora's campaign for its international recognition.[1][2] Regarding his statements, Dink was prosecuted three times for denigrating Turkishness and received numerous death threats from Turkish nationalists who accused him of treachery.
In a February 2006 interview with the Committee to Protect Journalists, Dink spoke about his 2005 conviction for denigrating Turkishness in a criminal court:"This is a political decision because I wrote about the Armenian Genocide and they detest that, so they found a way to accuse me of insulting Turks."
Hrant Dink - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Orhan Pamuk is an internationally-known Turkish author whose novels, including Snow and My Name is Red, have been translated into many languages and have received wide critical acclaim. He is facing charges under Article 301 for comments he made during an interview he gave to a Swiss newspaper (Tages Anzeiger) on 5 February 2005. In the interview, Orhan Pamuk stated, “30,000 Kurds and a million Armenians were murdered. Hardly anyone dares mention it, so I do. And that’s why I’m hated”.

Journalists Murat Belge, Ismet Berkan, Hasan Cemal, Erol Katırcıoglu and Haluk Sahin are all facing possible prison sentences under Article 301 for newspaper articles they wrote about a judicial decision to ban a conference on the situation of Armenians during the Ottoman Empire. The first hearing of their case is due to be held at Bağcılar Court of First Instance No. 2 on 7 February 2006.
Turkey: Court drops case against novelist Orhan Pamuk - Amnesty International

A trial began in May 2005 at the Beyoglu Court of First Instance No. 2 in Istanbul against publisher Ragip Zarakolu for his publication of a Turkish translation of a book by Dora Sakayan entitled Experiences of an Armenian Doctor: Garabet Hacheryan's Izmir Journal.

Not Armenian Genocide, but related under human rights abuses:
Fatih Tas is a 26-year-old student of Communications and Journalism at Istanbul University and the owner of Aram publishing house. He is currently being tried under Article 301 because he published a Turkish translation of a book by the American academic John Tirman, entitled Savas Ganimetleri: Amerikan Silah Ticaretinin Insan Bedeli (Istanbul: Aram, 2005) (The Spoils of War: the Human Cost of America’s Arms Trade), that reportedly includes a map depicting a large section of Turkey as traditionally Kurdish and alleges that the Turkish military perpetrated a number of human rights abuses in the south-east of the country during the 1980s and 1990s.

Turkey: Article 301 is a threat to freedom of expression and must be repealed now! - Amnesty International



And your telling me that others AREN'T charged with the same crime, all because they don't make it in the news?? Then you're delusional.


And Soriano hits one "OUT OF THE PARK".............

zraver

Thank you for finally admititng at least this much. The relocation with intent to destroy thier idenity in the region by itself is genocide with or with out the deaths. However your claim does correspond to the visual evidence of forced death marches.

Big K

Who is Morgenthau? Hes Jewish and was a real estate agent. Due to his support to the President Wilson’s election campaign hes been appointed as the US Ambassador in the Ottoman Empire. Hes the witness of many events in Istanbul between November 1913 and February 1916. During the WW1 US embassy was an unofficial bureau of citizens of Allieds which was pursuing their and Allieds Pows affairs. He was in contact with Talat Pasa, members of the cabinet and German Ambassador Wagenheim and also he visited Dardanelles Front.

After 2 years He gave his journal to Mr. Burton J. Hendrick, a famous journalist and by the aid of Mr. Morgenthau this Mr. Hendrick (with the support of US Ministry of Foreign Affairs) arranged these journals and formed a book known “Story of Ambassador H. Morhenthau”. an American Historian states there is no other book as effective as this one to shape American point of wiew to a specific country and nation.

Opposingly to the general belief the book is NOT written by Morgenthau himself, his letters and journals are used as a source.
Agop Andonian (an Armenian)and Schmavonian (Mortgenhau's assistants) prepared the main draft. when hes back in USA Mr. R.Lansing (Minister of Foreign Affairs of US) make some retouchs and finally Mr. Hendrick a famous journalist wrote the whole book*

*due to Historian Heath W. Lowry

The part of the book which concerns to the Battle of Dardannelles was already published in 2005 by Seven Hill publishing house. (Çanakkale Devler ülkesinde Devler Savaşı, Yeditepe Yayınevi , 2005).

Lowry sad that there are great differences between the Published book and unpublished original writings of Mr. Morgenthau.

In the the additions to the original text Talat pasa and the other Turkish Administrators are showed as monstruous beings contrary to the unpublished parts of the original journal.

But Mr. Schreiner also noticed that Mr. Morgenthau’s strong and intensive relations and friendship with these Ottoman Admins. and German Ambassador himself.

This book has been published in 1918. the most revelant points in the book are:
1-Ottoman Govt. Entered the Great War due to the pressure of Imperialist German Govt.
2-Talat and Enver took advantage of the circumstances to exile Ottoman Armenians
3-it is only Mr. Morgenthau who made efforts in order to reason evil Talat and Enver out of doing their mean actions
4-hes efforts were ungrateful because the only person who have influence on Talat and Enver was German Ambassador Wagenheim refused to be interested about helpless poor Armenians

in 1918 the biggest reaction to the book had come from a Associated Press Reporter Mr. George A. Schreiner. Mr. Schreiner have been in Dardanelles Battle and also he monitored the "relocation".

he sad :
the bitter attitude that you accuse the Turks are not seen by you. you are not a eyewittness. your numbers of killed Armenians are far great then the whole Armenians that existed in the rioting area. if i have to be clear it is impossible that i support your efforts to show Turks as the baddest creatures and also the efforts of showing Germans as even badder that Turks -if it is even possible-.

__________________
I'm not willing to remain silent even there will be no effect when i say.

Kansas Bear

You should spend time finding out who pays "historian" Lowry. He is FAR from a neutral source.

I've already shown that the Turkish government FINANCES via Princeton "their" historians and "their" version of history.

I'm sure he does. Since the Turkish government writes his paycheck, what do you expect him to say?