Big K

I find the truth about this "neutral" ambassador. if you give me a couple of hours i'll try to translate it in English.

and about all of your eyewitnesses. step by step.

for now regards. and see you in a couple of hours.

__________________
I'm not willing to remain silent even there will be no effect when i say.

deadkenny

So sometimes the deniers admit the population of Armenians to be 3 million, but then supposedly add up the 'claims' of the numbers exterminated to be some ridiculously high figure, like 35 million in BigK's post. Other times the deniers use the actual official claim of the number of Armenians exterminated to be 1.5 million, but then they underestimate the Armenian population, as in this case of 1.1 million. As I said before, sounds just exactly like a guilty man trying to plead his innocence, but unable to get his story straight.

zraver

Big K, those are not Turkish victims, the women lack any form of head coverings required by Islamic law. Also Islamic law requires imediate burial not stacking like cordwood and leaving them. Also please explain the starvation pictures and the trail of dead bodies that obvious lay where they dropped on a forced march, Again ther eis no way these are Turkiush victims.

Big K

this head scarve issue is highly exagerrated. where do you know that they didnt have a head covering when she was alive?

if theres no one left to bury...

like i've already sad, even my family has escaped from a massacre by Armenian bands...

starvation was a general issue in these days, they were at war....and Ottomans were especially weak in the name of logistics...

on the other hand do you know Armenian language???

as you are very interested about the pictures can you just EXPLAIN these pictures???


Armenian bands?????? and their arms??? can you read the Armenian alphabet written on these pictures???

the Armenians were there with their armed men while Turkish men were at the Russian Front....this is what try to say.....!!!!!!!!!

and the rest:
Greatest Turkish Empires

and the rest:
Ermeni Sorunu, Armenian Question, Der Armenier Konflikt, Question Armenienne - FORSNET

i can show more and more....

Big K

A group of Muslim women and children from Hizir İllias village, Diyarbakir, helpless and defenseless on account of the absence of their husbands and male relatives serving in the Army, were, on July 23, 1915, slaughtered at Mersin Dere, by means of daggers and shot by rifles in a most pitiless and horibble way by an Armenian Band under the the notorious and well known bandit Hono.

zraver,
you must mention of this picture by saying this...
"the trail of dead bodies that obvious lay where they dropped on a forced march, Again ther eis no way these are Turkish victims."

they were Turkish.....look they even have head scarves...

neyzen

Number is not the case for genocide consideration. More Turks than Armenians murdered in that years. Pls tell me why I don't hear the word "Turkish Genocide" that much. "1.5 million Armenians were systematicly killed by Ottoman Turks." is famous saying of Armenian propaganists. We expose to it with huge repetitions. You can find the genocide order in first page which shows turkish "intend". The document is fake from every angle. My quote explains it. For 1.1; 1.5 million Armenians can not be killed, this is what I try to say here. I can clarify it more, if you want to know more about it. Edited pictures etc.. are shameless attempts, isn't it? I am attacking to Armenian "truths" which are not truth in reality. This is what I can do now. Tell me what should I do to grasp real story, or better you give the story straight. deadkenny?

deadkenny

No, the numbers are important when the deniers 'make up' figures such as the total population of Armenians being only 1.1 million. Those who recognize the historical truth of the extermination of the Armenians 'consistently' state the number killed as 1.5 million out of a population of 3 million. Yet, on the deniers' side of the argument we have your post agreeing that the claim for the number killed is 1.5 million, but then claiming that the Armenian population was only 1.1 million. Contradicting that was BigK's post admitting that the population was around 3 million, but claiming that the total of murder claims was 35 million. Rule of thumb, someone telling the truth 'knows' what the truth is and states it consistently. A liar can't get his story straight. That's your answer.

Big K

Stanford J. Shaw stated that in year 1890 in Ottoman Empire there was 12.585.950 Muslims 1.139.053 Armenians in 1897 14.111.945 Muslims 1.162.853 Armenians ; in 1906 - 15.518.478 Muslims 1.140.563 Armenians and in 1914 15.044.846 Muslims 1.229.007 Armenians.

also

Armenian population decreased because they joined Russian Armys during 1827-18281 1877-1878 Russo-Ottoman wars and during WW1 they joined Russian and French Armys and also the British Armys. This situation is also confirmed by many westerner researchers. in 1829 when Russians withdrawing from Erzurum claimed that a 40 000 Armenian were gone with them to South Caucassian region the same thig about another 120 000 Armenians who immigrated alongside with Russians during their withdrawal. also with the capitulations gained by the 1838 trade agreements for foreigner businessmen many of Armenians took the citizenship of English, French, Rus and left the Ottoman lands...unfortunately all of these Armenians counted as massacred by Turks...

1914 Official figures about population:

Muslims Armenians

13.339.000 1.234.671

many of westerner researchers agreeing these numbers of Armenians which:

Stanford J. Shaw 1.229.007
H. Lynch 1.324.246,
L. De Constenson 1.400.000
H. Paster Madijian 1.700.000

deadkenny

Here your previous post appears to 'admit' that the population of Armenians was somewhere near to 3 million. Now suddenly it's only 1.1 million? As I said, a liar can't keep his story straight.

Big K

1-it is saying that there is some dreamers that they say even 35 millions were killed!!!
2-and also the Armenian population did never pass the 3 million EVEN TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!

and stop saying liar to me!

i wonder how can you be more demagogic???? how can you make your statements from this??? are you high?

deadkenny

No, a denier is saying that those who accept the historical truth of the extermination of the Armenians are the ones claiming that 35 million were killed. Only the deniers say that. No one who accepts the historical truth of the extermination of the Armenians claims that 35 million were killed.

Yes, but YOUR SOURCE stated the 3 million figure. If one is claiming that the total population is only 1.1 million, one is hardly going to state that as 'the population was not over 3 million'. There's no mathematical contradiction, but what I quoted FROM YOUR SOURCE was not a mathematical statement, it was prose. In stating that the Armenian population was 'not over 3 million' it was implicitly accepting that it was somewhere 'near' 3 million.

I didn't call you a liar, I simply pointed out that a liar cannot keep his story straight. On the one hand we have those who accept the historical truth of the extermination of the Armenians, who state a consistent case. On the other hand we have the deniers who are all over the place with their claims. The only consistency among the deniers is that 'the Turks didn't do it'.

xerxes

Hi pari, Perhapes I did get the wrong perception ... then if that is so, I will correct myself

But my defense is impacable: how would you treat a thread which the main subject of discussion is the Japanese atrocities in Burma and Philipinnes and China and elsewhere, and the Japanese poster(s) are treating the matter casually and speaking of the go'd ol' days when China was as their mercy and 100,000 were put to sword here and there. You see my point. Granted, the Brits are 1,000 times better then Japanese in their imperialism in the past, and granted they did give something back to their slaves. Ex: Egypt, India etc. But nonetheless, the subject of talking casually about raping other nations and how cool it was, does not sit well with certain people that are not of the Anglo-saxon race on this forum, no more than boasting about he rape of Nanjing will not seat well with non-Japanese.

__________________
If we contrast the rapid progress of this mischievous discovery of gunpowder with the slow and laborious advances of reason, science, and the arts of peace, a philosopher, according to his temper, will laugh or weep at the folly of mankind. - Edward Gibbon

zraver

Big K, I did not post that picture or make comment upon it plese do not try and put words in my mouth. Did certain Armenian groups retaliate? Probably, but that does not excuse the Turkish goverment of the time for thier reprisals and genocide nor doe sit excuse modern Turks and Turkey who deny, distort, and disgrace the memory of what happened. Your denials amount to the rapist defense (She was wearing a mini-skirt she should have known better), they deserved it. They did not deserve it, no one deserves it and your natiosn refusal to give the episode the closure it deserves is why Turkey cannot and will not be admitted into the EU.

cape_royds

Slightly off-topic, but still germane, is the story of a Turkish scholar of the Armenian massacres, Taner Akcam, being anonymously denounced to Canadian security authorities (CSIS) and detained upon his arrival at Montreal, where he was scheduled to appear at a conference at McGill University.

Link:

Informed Comment

Luckily for Mr. Taner Akcam, he was not held incommunicado or "rendered" anywhere in the manner of Arar, so McGill University officials were able to pull some strings and get him released.

The story is reveletory of the bitterness with which some Turkish nationalists are willing to attack a student of the Armenian massacres, like Mr. Akcam. It also warns of the disturbing ease with which our national security apparatus can be manipulated.

Mr. Akcam has still not managed to find out exactly why he was detained, nor of course has he been able to discover what sort of dossier has been compiled. All he knows so far is that apparently some of the evidence for detaining him was based on a doctored Wikipedia article.

cape_royds

BTW on the subject of the Armenian massacres themselves, I'm willing to allow the Turks some slack. It is true that in certain provinces Armenians were actively sabotaging the Turkish armies, openly welcoming and assisting the Russians, and so forth. It is also true that many Armenians died due to the difficult logistics of deportation in the midst of war, rather than outright execution. Finally, it is true that the Armenians were deeply resented as being the cause of repeated prior foreign interference in Turkish affairs.

The Turks were in a desperate war, and against the Armenians they committed a desperate crime. But crime it was.

There was a conscious, deliberate and systematic effort to deport the Armenian people, and this was done with complete disregard to their survival and with the plain intention of eliminating them as a cohesive ethnic group. There were also many instances of mass killing. It was therefore "genocide" under the usual meaning of the term.

The Turkish national revival in the wake of the Great War, which defied all expectation of their former enemies, is something in which the Turks can take a good deal of pride.

But Turkish nationalism also has its dark side, which ought to be acknowledged, not least for the Turks' own sake.