Thread: Most decisive battle of World War 2

Originally Posted by ace16807

Taking a US outpost out in the middle of the pacific is one thing... Taking Hawaii is another... I doubt the IJN and IJA had the ability to land on and take such a hardened target... Let alone provide the logistics for it.

They should be able to land and take it, they took the Dutch East Indies after all, the only differance is distance. But even if they do take it, what then? Wake turned into a death trap, Malaysia and Indonesia became prisons etc. As you point out Japan could not sustain logistics that far away from home.

How? Pearl Harbour was a surprise. Could the Japanese do it again with the USN and all their birds airborne going hunting for them? Not to mention that even had the IJN won the air battle at Midway, the Marine garrison was more than ready to receive them. Magnify that a 100 fold on Hawaii.

Let's not forget the sub fleet is going to wreck havoc since IJN ASW well doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

How? Pearl Harbour was a surprise. Could the Japanese do it again with the USN and all their birds airborne going hunting for them?

In December 1941, after the Pearl harbor attack, the Japanese battle fleet was the big boy on the block. It had the most carriers, the most battleships, the best pilots and aircraft that while far from ideal, worked well enough vs what the US had at the time.

The troops would have landed, the US carriers were too spread out and would have taken several days to regroup, form a fleet and then move on the landings.

Gotcha, you mean 8 or 9 Dec, 1941.

It'd been a helluva fight and doubt they could have taken it. Honolulu alone would have eaten them alive- and I'm certain that we'd have fought to hold it. I can't imagine a surrender ala' Singapore.

The wake-up call was rapid. 25th I.D. was deployed within hours, IIRC, and had completed their move within a day or two to the beaches.

I'm otherwise occupied right now but it merits elaboration on what WAS DONE in the aftermath and what further could have been done to resist an invasion.

Further, the troops necessary by the IJA to do so. Finally, how long for our carriers to return and under what conditions could they have been mustered- a TF lurking in their rear probably wouldn't have been comforting.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Gotcha, you mean 8 or 9 Dec, 1941.

It would have to be, within a couple of weeks most of the US fleet will have sortied from the West Coast, passed through the canal, raced across the world etc to try and build a battle fleet to save the Islands.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Let's not forget the sub fleet is going to wreck havoc since IJN ASW well doesn't exist.

Just a quick point here Colonel.While the US had argueably the best designed subs in the conflict they also had the most ineffective torpedos.Malfunctioning exploders and depth control problems made being a US sub commander early in the war a very frustrating experience.

Originally Posted by S-2

It'd been a helluva fight and doubt they could have taken it. Honolulu alone would have eaten them alive- and I'm certain that we'd have fought to hold it. I can't imagine a surrender ala' Singapore.

The wake-up call was rapid. 25th I.D. was deployed within hours, IIRC, and had completed their move within a day or two to the beaches.

I'm otherwise occupied right now but it merits elaboration on what WAS DONE in the aftermath and what further could have been done to resist an invasion.

Further, the troops necessary by the IJA to do so. Finally, how long for our carriers to return and under what conditions could they have been mustered- a TF lurking in their rear probably wouldn't have been comforting.

Assuming its the Malayan invasion force rerouted, the Japanese would have about 70,000 troops and a couple hundred light tanks. In real history they did 3 landings. I'm not sure the 25th ID could have held while being flanked.

If we go by the troops on the Bataan Peninsulas they would fight bravely and to their last ,measure but it wouldn't be enough. Japanese troops are also less likely to be ravaged by diseases, our sanitation and development and the time of year would aid an invader. Although they won't hurt the defender either.

If the USN can't find a way to break the Japanese fleet, I think it falls, although some smaller islands might hang on until the US fleet is rebuilt.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Do you actually think the Japanese had a chance in hell to take Hawaii?

I do think there is a possibility that IF the battle had gone the opposite opposite way (all 3 US carriers and their planes lost) The Japanese might have been able to invade Hawaii in mid 42. On further reflection the US probably would have stripped the Atlantic fleet to prevent it, and a serious attack on the west coast probabaly wouldn't have been an option for them. But the impact on the US contibution to the European front would have been substantial, it might have prevented operation Torch (Fall 42) for example.