Most decisive battle of World War 2

**1979** · 03 May 11,, 06:09

No problem, I get the point .
the american division used the 3 infantry regiment structure AFAIK.
169+169+169+48+70=625 trucks.
70 trucks for the arty reg. is also to low (the german motorized div , arty regiment had 407 motor vehicles and 31 motorcycles ).
as for jeeps if each company had at least 4, than the infantry regiments had 48*3= 144.

I'm guessing the american div had at least 400 motor vehicles in the arty reg. also ,so 169+169+169+48+400+144= 1099 motor vehicles.
the rest until 1371 are probably in the engineer,signal,antiaircraft,antitank,recon battalions and HQ.

**zraver** · 04 May 11,, 02:38

Originally Posted by 1979

I'm guessing the american div had at least 400 motor vehicles in the arty reg.

Am American Infantry division only had 30 tubes at the divisional level, 18 x 105mm and 12x 155mm. In addition each regiment had a 6 x 105mm attachment. its hard to digess a 48 gun unit having 400 vehicles. The typical load out for a 155m on a 2.5 ton truck was 36 shots in upright tubes, 18 on an M10 trailer. 105mm which came in 2 shell crates weighing 100lbs instead of upright tubes could be stacked to weight.

S2 · 04 May 11,, 05:55

"Am American Infantry division only had 30 tubes at the divisional level, 18 x 105mm and 12x 155mm."

Not so. U.S. Army infantry divisions employed three D.S. 105mm battalions of twelve tubes apiece along with one G.S. 155mm battalion. 48 tubes total in DIVARTY. Additionally, the infantry regiments possessed their organic cannon company.

Leo Niehorster probably does the best job of charting organization for combat of any W.W. II scholars. Here's his link on the U.S. Army in 1943-

U.S. Army Authorized Infantry Division 1943-Niehorster

1942 establishment-

U.S. Army Authorized Infantry Division 1942-Niehorster

**1979** · 04 May 11,, 14:53

Originally Posted by zraver

its hard to digess a 48 gun unit having 400 vehicles.

I was wrong ,
acording to S2 link the US DIVARTY had 450 motor vehicles ( 188 2.5 ton trucks, 87 0.25 ton jeeps?, 160 0.75 ton light trucks, 15 4 ton heavy trucks )

**Albany Rifles** · 04 May 11,, 18:43

addition each regiment had a 6 x 105mm attachment.

This was not an attachment. It was an organic element of an infantry regiment. The Cannon Company was an infantry organization manned by infantrymen and equipped with 105mm howitzers...either towed or SP.

It was not part of the artillery establishment.

Its fires could be integrated into an overall fireplan but it was not subject to the orders DIVARTY commander. It answered solely to the regimental commander or his S-3.

Think of it as a regimental mortar section.

Also, the trucks of the divisional and non-divisional artillery units were for internal support and hauling of the basic load of ammunition. They should not be counted in the rolling stock for movement of supplies...same with any other vehicles assigned to a unit. Vehicles are assigned to a unit for hauling the assigned personnel and equipment of that unit.

Only transportation units and quartermaster truck companies filled the requirement for moving supplies.

**1979** · 05 May 11,, 06:19

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Also, the trucks of the divisional and non-divisional artillery units were for internal support and hauling of the basic load of ammunition. They should not be counted in the rolling stock for movement of supplies...same with any other vehicles assigned to a unit. Vehicles are assigned to a unit for hauling the assigned personnel and equipment of that unit.

Only transportation units and quartermaster truck companies filled the requirement for moving supplies.

as I understand it , during the breakout from Normandy they were.

the primary vehicle was the relatively small but plentiful 2½-ton ("deuce-and-a-half") truck. Not enough of the more effective 10-ton semi-trailers were available. Gathering the truck companies for the Red Ball had required immobilizing three newly arrived infantry divisions by stripping them of their trucks and creating provisional truck companies. The armies also had to muster all their transport to help transport supplies, including using tactical engineer and artillery battalions.

Originally planned to last only two weeks, the Red Ball Express lasted for 81 days. During that time it transported 412,193 tons of supplies.66 A hastily organized, ad hoc crisis response effort, it accomplished its purpose in keeping the armies moving but at a terrible cost.

HyperWar: The Big 'L'--American Logistics in World War II [Chapter 7]

**The Black Ghost** · 09 May 11,, 03:17

Good that most people seem to know their basic WWII history. The Eastern (Russian) front was the most important part of World War II. The entire Pacific War and the Western front of Europe pales in comparison to the war between the Soviet Union and Germany, accounting for at least 30 million dead and the grand majority of all troop deployments in the war. Russia's ability to push back the Germans was the main catalyst for ending the war.

**Albany Rifles** · 09 May 11,, 15:08

Originally Posted by 1979

as I understand it , during the breakout from Normandy they were.

HyperWar: The Big 'L'--American Logistics in World War II [Chapter 7]

That was an exceptional situation, 1979, and not a normal activity. And it was almost all nondivisional artillery which was effected, not divisional.

So I stand on my statement....you do not count the artillery internal lift of American divisions in the overall computation of lift assets for American units.

**Albany Rifles** · 09 May 11,, 15:12

Originally Posted by The Black Ghost

Good that most people seem to know their basic WWII history. The Eastern (Russian) front was the most important part of World War II. The entire Pacific War and the Western front of Europe pales in comparison to the war between the Soviet Union and Germany, accounting for at least 30 million dead and the grand majority of all troop deployments in the war. Russia's ability to push back the Germans was the main catalyst for ending the war.

Oh, thanks for your insight.

**1979** · 09 May 11,, 15:20

I was trying to figure out the total truck transport capacity available to the western allies in august.
in the mean time after some digging up, I must admit that zraver was right about the speed of the supply columns, 4 mph is about right, sometimes even less.

**Albany Rifles** · 09 May 11,, 16:51

Originally Posted by 1979

I was trying to figure out the total truck transport capacity available to the western allies in august.
in the mean time after some digging up, I must admit that zraver was right about the speed of the supply columns, 4 mph is about right, sometimes even less.

I understand...but in the doctrine for the US Army then as now you never figure in the organic vehicle assets for transportation of supplies. Those assets belong to the unit comamnder for the transport of those items needed to conduct the mission. So in an artillery unit the 2 1/2 ton trucks carried the ammunition, towed the guns, carried the gun crews and all of their gear for operations. Only in the most dire circumstances would higher HQ pull those assets away...it would cause the guns to be immobile and useless. The 3 divisions you cited did not get into the fight until much later...and they were needed.

The 4 mph average is pretty accurate when you take into account all of the events you take into account for convoy planning. Having planned a few of thosoe in reality we now actually use a 15 mph average as being pretty good.