Big K

i've debated a alot about this issue here in WAB...

in order to understand us i can invite all WAB members to Turkey. come and see the truth....relations between our people....

also my Great grand mother and her family are victims of Armenian brutality...

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I'm not willing to remain silent even there will be no effect when i say.

Big K

Talat, Cemal and Enver were maybe dreamers but not butchers...

neyzen

I invite them to Armenia too. People can see what has remained from Turkish majority population. No Turks remains in Armenia and no Turkish structures.

Ironduke

Care to source that?

First World War.com - Who's Who - Said Halim Pasha

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The Buck Stops Here

Khan_Han

This is common knowledge amongst Turkish Academia. But, for publishing purposes if you really need the citations...contact the Turk Tarih ve Dil Kurumu in Ankara. They will also furnish you copies of the documents from the Imperial Ottoman Archives. They may (electronic copies) also possibly be available on the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs website.

Ironduke

If he is Armenian, why does everybody claim him as the grandson of Muhammad Ali? Are they lying?

Khan_Han

(1) Sir, I am not claiming that he is fully Armenian. He was an Ottoman citizen BUT he had Armenian ancestry. Please note, I have used the word "ancestry" above to denote his ethnic makeup not his citizenship.

(2) Muhammad Ali Pasha is of joint Albanian and Armenian ancestry. Said Halim Pasha's Armenian ancestry is also not only partly from the paternal side but also through the maternal side. Hence, Said Halim Pasha is of mixed Albanian and Armenian ethnicity.

(3) Said Halim Pasha was married to Emine Indji Toussoun, (daughter of Muhammed Toussoun Pasha and Bachachat-Imr Hanim) also of Armenian ethnicity.

neyzen

Sait Halim Pasha was islamist for all all Turkish sources that I've checked on internet.

Khan_Han

Neyzen, he was a "donme", using Islam as a disguise. After the Palace became informed of this, inter alia he was sent to exile in Italy. This is what I have found while reseaching Imperial Ottoman documents in Ankara and abroad. But if you can cite better first hand resources I am happy to reconsider the validity of my resources.

Ironduke

How is his possible partial Armenian ancestry of any salience? Was he an advocate for Armenians, did he express sympathies for them publicly or in policy? Did he consider himself Armenian? I don't see how it's relevant, everybody who's Turkish has some kind of non-Turkish ancestry, don't they?

Khan_Han

Both his wife Emine Indji Toussoun and himself were well aware of their armenia heritage and considered themselves to some extent as ethnic Armenians. So I cannot comprehend how he would have sanctioned the killing of Armenians.

Ironduke

So, even if the Grand Vizier considered himself "to some extent" as an ethnic Armenian instead of the grandson of the Egyptian viceroy Muhammad Ali, what difference does it make?

The Sultan and Grand Vizier were powerless, CUP was in full control. How do you reconcile the fact that he was assassinated by an Armenian agent for his alleged role in the Armenian Genocide?

Your argument just doesn't add up, it's rather weak. I asked you to provide sources confirming him as an Armenian, you tell me to consult the Turkish archives. Isn't this information available elsewhere? Furthermore, how was he politically relevant? And what relevance would him being partial Armenian have, even if he was as you claimed.

Khan_Han

The reason why I refer you to the Imperial Ottoman Archive documents is because I don't like referring secondary sources for any insight into history. Especially, when there is so much contention surrounding that era. The validity of secondary sources almost always is questionable. Accurate and reliable historical data is best gleaned and extracted from the primary sources such as government archives and documents. After all, these documents cannot be forged as forensics and carbon dating can always foil these attempts, just as we foiled some attempts to distort our history in Turkey with these methods. Secondary resources and the commentary of experts in my opinion will only add to the confusion surrounding the events of 1920.

And just for the record: he was assassinated by the Armenian organisation because he refused to aid and abet the Armenian uprising against the Imperial Ottoman Government. Not because he committed or aided the so-called Armenian "genocide". If this had been the aim, the exiled Sultan was a much easier and accessible target! He was living in a Villa in Rome, Italy with no bodyguards or protection what so ever. In fact, a large number of high ranking Imperial Ottoman Military personnel were also much more easier targets with no diplomatic of close protection. The reason why Said Halim Pasha was executed was because of the Armenian dimension I brought to your attention above.

N.B. I am not here to defend or assert my personal or prejudicial opinion. Yes, I may be of Turkish herritage but I am being objective. In fact, I have instructed my collegues in Turkey, to put these documents on the world wide web for everyone to peruse through. Such documents were only released in 2003, by the orders of the current Government. In fact, the Chiefs of the General Staff, has also opened its achieve too in 2004. However, it is a shame that the documents have not been scanned and put onto the world wide web. Only a select number were put onto the internet in a bid to refute certain claims by certain governments and academics.