View Poll Results: Which was the better commander?

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  • Fedor von Bock

    1 1.15%
  • Heinz Guderian

    29 33.33%
  • Erwin Rommel

    39 44.83%
  • Walther Wenck

    0 0%
  • Erich von Manstein

    15 17.24%
  • Gerd von Rundstedt

    3 3.45%
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Thread: Who was the better commander?

  1. #166
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    Patton vs Guderian would have been VERY interesting.

    If it was reasonably close to parity, not like the over-whelming odds in men, material & air power of the Allies in '44/'45, [Napoleon himself would have been pushed])

    And as good as Patton was, I'd go with Triple C on this one & pick Guderian, he did everything Patton did.... and then some.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANZAC View Post
    Patton vs Guderian would have been VERY interesting.

    If it was reasonably close to parity, not like the over-whelming odds in men, material & air power of the Allies in '44/'45, [Napoleon himself would have been pushed])

    And as good as Patton was, I'd go with Triple C on this one & pick Guderian, he did everything Patton did.... and then some.
    I would argue its the other way around since Patton's exploits came after Guderians. Both raced across France, although in different directions, both had a second singular accomplishment (Smolensk and the relief of Bastonge) both had issues with their political leadership that precluded advancement to higher ranks. Both of they nations they served went into the war with an armored force roughly designed from the ground up be each.

  3. #168
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    im honestly split between guderian and rommel...

    they're more or less the same but im goin for guderian bcoz it takes guts to get into a shouting match with hitler...
    ppbulatlat.blogspot.com

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPan View Post
    im honestly split between guderian and rommel...

    they're more or less the same but im goin for guderian bcoz it takes guts to get into a shouting match with hitler...
    If he would have started the shouting match while he was at Smolensk,or if he would have resigned before Citadel he might have accomplished something of strategic value to his country.But he only shouted in 1945 while the Reds were sweeping through Poland.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterPan View Post
    im honestly split between guderian and rommel...

    they're more or less the same but im goin for guderian bcoz it takes guts to get into a shouting match with hitler...
    shudder.... The proper use of they're tells me you know English. But the parts in bold tell your a sixth grade texter. Capitalize first names and I when I is alone of as part of I am and I'm. Goin and bcoz are not English, although goin might be a misspelling for going. Bcoz isn't anything but text.

    Now to your premise- Guderian and Rommel. Rommel never enjoyed sustained success above that of a division commander. His story is one of almost victories, he almsot did, he almost got there, he almost won. He almost lived to the end of the war to, but almost doesn't count for much.

    Guderian on the other hand is a story of victory denied. He had the BEF trapped, he was poised to take Moscow in October but in both cases Hitler not the enemy stopped him. Guderian also conceived and executed an idea that changed warfare- radios in every tank.

  6. #171
    Senior Contributor Mihais's Avatar
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    ''Now to your premise- Guderian and Rommel. Rommel never enjoyed sustained success above that of a division commander. His story is one of almost victories, he almsot did, he almost got there, he almost won. He almost lived to the end of the war to, but almost doesn't count for much.

    Guderian on the other hand is a story of victory denied. He had the BEF trapped, he was poised to take Moscow in October but in both cases Hitler not the enemy stopped him. Guderian also conceived and executed an idea that changed warfare- radios in every tank.[/QUOTE]

    Your opinion on Rommel can be further extended to many other German Generals.Many of them almost won.But as body they lacked the moral courage to demand a clear strategy.It was not Guderian,Rommel or von Manstein's job to establish the national objective,but they could have demanded a unified command and clear strategic objectives and a concentration of forces.All their operational skills were worthless without that.
    p.s My favorite is Gotthard Heinrici.No dazzling panzers across the steps,just a pile of bodies and flaming T-34's in front of his trenches.The only way SU could have been exhausted.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    I would argue its the other way around since Patton's exploits came after Guderians. Both raced across France, although in different directions, both had a second singular accomplishment (Smolensk and the relief of Bastonge) both had issues with their political leadership that precluded advancement to higher ranks. Both of they nations they served went into the war with an armored force roughly designed from the ground up be each.
    Fair enough, but don't you think Metz was a major black mark against Patton?
    He advanced only 46 miles & it took him three full months to reduce resistance in the area between the Moselle and Saar rivers, on the other hand Guderian spearheaded the defeat of France in six weeks.
    Last edited by ANZAC; 26 Apr 09, at 09:18.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    he was poised to take Moscow in October but in both cases Hitler not the enemy stopped him
    Cripes, that could open a can of worms.

    BTW, did you mean end of August?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    It was not Guderian,Rommel or von Manstein's job to establish the national objective,but they could have demanded a unified command and clear strategic objectives and a concentration of forces
    But Manstein & especially Guderian did argue with Hitler about overall strategy, and it ended up with them both being sacked.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    shudder.... The proper use of they're tells me you know English. But the parts in bold tell your a sixth grade texter. Capitalize first names and I when I is alone of as part of I am and I'm. Goin and bcoz are not English, although goin might be a misspelling for going. Bcoz isn't anything but text.
    Terribly sorry for that spot of horribly awful grammar back there... I guess that's what you get if you text too much (aside from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome).


    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Now to your premise- Guderian and Rommel. Rommel never enjoyed sustained success above that of a division commander. His story is one of almost victories, he almost did, he almost got there, he almost won. He almost lived to the end of the war to, but almost doesn't count for much

    Guderian on the other hand is a story of victory denied. He had the BEF trapped, he was poised to take Moscow in October but in both cases Hitler not the enemy stopped him. Guderian also conceived and executed an idea that changed warfare- radios in every tank.
    Romell was also of victory denied.
    ppbulatlat.blogspot.com

  10. #175
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    Relieving Bastogne isn't an achievement that compares to, say, the capture of Smolensk.

    At Bastogne a single division on one side of the Bulge besieged by pretty much one division was eventually relieved (it took days of attrition in the snow) by another single division, from an overall offensive that had already stopped two days beforehand.

    Smolensk is an operation that caused the Soviets nearly 350,000 casualties, around a city that was to become the centre of German logistics in the East.

  11. #176
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    The posters change. The central figures remain the same-Guderian, Patton, Zraver, clackers.

    Little truly changes in the great debates. Those of prominence and accomplishment will always be noted.
    "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
    "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by clackers View Post
    Relieving Bastogne isn't an achievement that compares to, say, the capture of Smolensk.

    At Bastogne a single division on one side of the Bulge besieged by pretty much one division was eventually relieved (it took days of attrition in the snow) by another single division, from an overall offensive that had already stopped two days beforehand.
    Bastogne was encircled by 4 divisions and had almost 2 divisions worth trapped 101st AB, CCC, 10th armored, and stragglers. More importantly were the roads those US troops corked. it doomed the German offensive. But Pattons's relief was another story. He didn't slash through the German lines, but across them and made 150 miles in 19 hours and did so agaisnt some of the best formatios in the German Army and never had to swap lead divisions. The situation was critical enough for the Germans that they threw away what remained of thier fuel and the luftwaffe in Operation Base Plate to try and regain the momentum.

    Smolensk is an operation that caused the Soviets nearly 350,000 casualties, around a city that was to become the centre of German logistics in the East.
    The Bulge cost Germany her last fit reserves in the west, and all of her armored reserves so carefully assembled after the disasters of June-August 1944. After the bulge the German defenses in the west collapsed and only an order by Eisenhower kept the allies out of Berlin.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihais View Post
    If he would have started the shouting match while he was at Smolensk,or if he would have resigned before Citadel he might have accomplished something of strategic value to his country.But he only shouted in 1945 while the Reds were sweeping through Poland.
    Why would he need to shout at Smolensk ?
    Guderian turn destroyed the Southwestern front east of Kiev, in the mean time the soviets launched futile ofensives aimed at retaking Smolensk, ofensive wich wasted they're strength needed to defend the Smolenk-Moskow highway. The russians raissed 10 reseve armies east of Moskow wich would be avilable in november if the operation Typhoon would be launched a month early.

    As for zhukov in all of his book one ideea prevails abouth the "Rzhev meatgrinder" I DID NOT DO IT , STALIN made me ,we did not have enough rezerves to do it.....
    ...PLEASE...wHEN 4 SOVIET FRONTS go on ofensive an Zhukov says he did not do it
    Last edited by bugs; 28 Apr 09, at 20:06.

  14. #179
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    As a side note the No. 183 (Kharkov) tank factory wich fel to the germans in Octomber produced, 230 tanks a month ,as it was moved to Nizhniy Tagil in the Urals russian tank production sufered a serious blow until march 1942 when production was back on initial levels.
    If von Kleist without Guderian turn south, would be able to capture Kharkov alone...

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugs View Post
    Why would he need to shout at Smolensk ?
    Guderian turn destroyed the Southwestern front east of Kiev, in the mean time the soviets launched futile ofensives aimed at retaking Smolensk, ofensive wich wasted they're strength needed to defend the Smolenk-Moskow highway. The russians raissed 10 reseve armies east of Moskow wich would be avilable in november if the operation Typhoon would be launched a month early.
    The problem for the Germans wasn't the turn for Kiev, but the pause before Lenningrad. Had Army Group North been able to seize that city the Germans would have been facing a different tactical situation for the final drive on Moscow.

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