Thread: What if: Western Allies vs Russia- 1945

Originally Posted by thejester

Yeah, the Pacific Fleet is going to be playing a decisive role on the North German Plain.

Oh Dear.
Lets see, completely ignoring the Australian, Indian and NZ divisions and sticking purely with the Americans

6th Infantry division
7th Infantry division
Americal Infantry division
24th Infantry division
25th Infantry division
27th Infantry division
31st Infantry division
32nd Infantry division
33rd Infantry division
37th Infantry division
38th Infantry division
40th Infantry division
41st Infantry division
43rd Infantry division
77th Infantry division
81st Infantry division
93rd Infantry division
96th Infantry division
98th Infantry division
Philippines Infantry division
11th Airborne division
1st Cavalry division

Marines
two corps with six divisions, and five air wings with 132 squadrons. In addition, 20 defense battalions and a parachute battalion

Add to that
Type............... 8/14/45*
Battleships.............23
Carriers, Fleet.........28
Carriers, Escort.......71
Cruisers.................72
Destroyers.............377
Frigates................361
Submarines............232
SSBNs - - - - - -
Command Ships - - - - - -
Mine Warfare.........586
Patrol...................1204
Amphibious............2547
Auxiliary................1267
Surface Warships....833
Total Active...........6768
Which provides rather nice mobility I'm sure you'll agree, and enables D-Day type landings anywhere from Siberia to the Crimea or the Baltic, and not a damn thing the Soviets could do about it.

We'll discount the bombers and fighters from the pacific, and just Stick with RAF, VIII and XV bomber commands. The only thing the Soviets had that could in any way counter the Allies heavy bombers was the Yak15, not (and I'm sure you'll leap to correct me if I'm wrong) introduced until 46.
There were of course Shooting Star squadrons in 45, and I believe the Meteor was rolling out in late 44? As well as the Bearcat and Tempest. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.
Couple that with American industrial production not having even having hit full speed, infact being scaled down because they were over-producing?

And you're going to put what up against this in any numbers, the Yak9? Or the Shturmovik? All this of course without them having any essential re-supply via lend-lease.



Yeah right.

You and I both know that the Ho Chi Minh trail was far more sophisticated than infilitarting infantry and coolies and than large numbers of tanks, men and guns - that in itself ignoring that there's a 25 year technology gap between what the Americans were using to interdict in Vietnam and what they'll use in this scenario.

It is still primarily an infantry trail, not an autobahn. And the technology differane is really not all that great. The Russians will provide a target rich enviroment without cover.

Even if we assume that the Red Army is just going to copy the plans it would come up with 20 years later for a war against NATO...so what if they're an inviting target? There's a huge difference between being inviting and being invited, if you catch my meaning - and that also assumes, as you later, that the Soviet attack is not the commencement of hostilities.

It is the only real option, an attack acros the center or out of the Balkans pits them agaisnt the biggest amount of defenders (US Army) in the most defensable posistions. The North Germna plains offer the prospect of rapid movement and ideally they can reach and cross the Rhine and build up a strong enough shoulder before the US Army can react and shift to support the BAOC.

Yes, failure. The Allied air forces set to completely isolate a light infantry force in static positions, and they failed. As I said, it goes beyond the Chinese not being able to bring up heavy weapons - Allied pilot wer knocking down spans and then seeign them be rebuilt in days. That is the failure of interdiction.

you can support a light infantry force on 100lbs per combat soldier per day, a mechanized force needs closer to a ton per combat troops per day thats a world of differance when it comes to interdiction. Even with those reduced requirments Chinese troops were often starving and weaponless.

Superchargers are irrelevant because of the altitude that the combat will be fought at, and I very much doubt that high octane fuel will provide any real advantage compared to the likes of teamwork. I'm not denying that the Allies will have the edge in the air, I just don't think it will be a walk over.

I think it willb e, the VVS has not had to contend with an airforce the size of the Western allies machine per machine, man per man, and doctrine for doctrine the allies are superior and more numerous.

Bombers are also much tougher. As F-86 pilots learned in Korea, volume of fire doesn't mean much when you're bullets aren't doing enough damage to the enemy.

Russian propjobs also lacked the armor of the Mig 15, They would have been shredded. The IL-2 and IL-10 had armor but still had inline engines not radials and even then thier armor was geared towards ground fire and light machine guns not the heavy armor peircing bullets of the 50 cal.

This isn't going to a long, attritional contest; nuclear weapons ensure that.

Aug 45 nukes are just coming on line so I am leaving them out of it. War vs the USSR will side line the pacific theater and the nukes and B-29's will probably be used to brow beat Japan into submisison. I am assuming an attritional war where the US and UK are seeking to liberate Poland and Eastern Europe.

[/quote]The USSR is out of trained men but still has huge numbers in the field. The UK is out of trained men but barely has any left in the field. The US is gradually increasing it's number of trained men but they are often 2nd/3rd rate recruits.[/quote]

I would point out the huge numbers avaiable of trained men in the African-American battalions. While racial view sof the time considered them inferior the truth is they are as good and as motivated as any white man.

Much of it from Europe...and I'm sure the Soviets would tremble in their boots at the thought of 5th Fleet arriving off the Kola. Not.

More like off the Batlic coast landing troops aimed at freeing the baltic states (who were pre-war US Allies) and threatening Lenningrad

Yeah, they would execute an extremely complex deception plan beforehand, conceal their preparation from the enemy, and then use the RIF to 'hug' the enemy. On top of this, you're assuming hostilities have broken out before the Soviets attack.

Of course I am, the thread idea was Patton gets his war. In this case botrh sodes will be aware of the others preperations and the allies are actively goading the Russians into action as justification (overfligths, rhetohric, arming dissidants, using "good" nazi's openly to recruit others form the Soviet zone etc)

Which will be utterly worthless. You've got an extreme faith in the PFF if you think they can pin point a lonely part of german countryside, mark it accurately, and then expect the Main Force to bomb it accurately enough to prevent widespread friendly casualties. On top of that, even the full force of Bomber Command would be able to at best hit one army sized formation. That still leaves about ten others to execute the initial attacks.

I have faith that recon will identify the most likely sites and then when the balloon goe sup radio direction will enable thew pathfinders to hit a city sized area that is serving as the Fronts artillery park and logistics base. and 1 more of 10 more a single successful raid makes such concentration suicidal and forces the Russians to adapt, something they did not readily do on the fly.

32 v 400-600? It shows the extreme disaprity between an air force that didn't know what it was doing and one with the killer instinct.

I think the same type of thing will occur if it is the RAF/USAAF vs the VVS in 1945.

I woudl agree to an extent, except I don't think the Allied air forces will be able to put the logistical cramp on before the damage is done.

Remember my goal (as Patton per the thread title) is not the mother of all battles, but Warsaw and Budapest