Are you religious beliefs logically consistent?

**Bulgaroctonus** · 15 Dec 05,, 03:47

Parihaka,
I will take a long look at the links you have posted and write a reply tommorrow.

**Parihaka** · 15 Dec 05,, 03:49

Originally Posted by Bulgaroctonus

Parihaka,
I will take a long look at the links you have posted and write a reply tommorrow.

Take your time old boy. I'm glad to hear you don't spend all your time sitting on the mountain

**BenRoethig** · 15 Dec 05,, 11:18

I look at God as primarily an engineer and teacher, not the omnipotent all-powerful control your life so you don't have to being that the masses do.

1. How come only one animal achieved sentience? On top of that, we're an evolutionary mistake. We're slow, have poor senses, weak, and our young are born one at a time and are extremely vulnerable to predators for the time longer than the life span of most animals. Species have become extinct for far less.

2. How did certain ideas came to be? Concepts like beauty, justice, love etc. have no real definition and from an objective situation serve to purpose. How come no other animal cares about such things?

3. Abstract thought. We are the only creature capable of thinking in terms of "what if". Again, to a hunter-gatherer primate what purpose does this serve?

If these are all useful traits, shouldn't have more than one species evolved with them? Evolution is only one part of a large puzzle. To say evolution is the definitive answer and that we already know all the secrets of the universe despite never having a person leave the Earth's gravity field, is arrogant at best.

**Praxus** · 15 Dec 05,, 20:16

I bit one bullet, it claims...

"You've just bitten a bullet! In saying that God has the freedom and power to do that which is logically impossible (like creating square circles), you are saying that any discussion of God and ultimate reality cannot be constrained by basic principles of rationality. This would seem to make rational discourse about God impossible. If rational discourse about God is impossible, there is nothing rational we can say about God and nothing rational we can say to support our belief or disbelief in God. To reject rational constraints on religious discourse in this fashion requires accepting that religious convictions, including your religious convictions, are beyond any debate or rational discussion. This is to bite a bullet."

Look at the bold. God is arbitrary which is exactly why it is not constrained by basic principles of rationality. They then unjustly "package" it with "ultimate reality". As if God and "Ultimate Reality" are equally valid concepts.

**Julie** · 16 Dec 05,, 00:23

I looked at the test, but did not take it. I think it is a joke.....sorry.

If you are a believer in God, you would know that pain/disease are consequences of punishment. It is not that God wishes there be no evil, disease or pain. It's just that man brings all of these things on himself by disobedience.

**Gabru47** · 16 Dec 05,, 03:43

If you are a believer in God, you would know that pain/disease are consequences of punishment. It is not that God wishes there be no evil, disease or pain. It's just that man brings all of these things on himself by disobedience.

Disobedience to what?

**Parihaka** · 16 Dec 05,, 03:44

Originally Posted by Gabru47

Disobedience to what?

Your wife.

**Samudra** · 16 Dec 05,, 04:12

you would know that pain/disease are consequences of punishment

Any God that 'punishes' is not a God.

**THL** · 16 Dec 05,, 13:50

Originally Posted by Julie

If you are a believer in God, you would know that pain/disease are consequences of punishment. It is not that God wishes there be no evil, disease or pain. It's just that man brings all of these things on himself by disobedience.

Any God that 'punishes' is not a God.

Sam
Maybe Julie meant more of a 'Karmic' response as punishment?

"The shortest explanation of karma that I know is: 'you get what you give'. In other words; whatever you do intentionally to others, a similar thing will happen to yourself in the future.
Our largest obstacle to understanding or even believing in karma may be time. The 're-actions' or results of our actions show up with a time delay, and it becomes extremely hard to tell which action caused which result. Actions done in a previous life can create results in this life, but who can remember their past life? For ordinary humans, the mechanisms of karma can be intellectually understood to some extent, but never completely "seen".

The idea behind karma is not only found in Buddhism and Hinduism; it seems that the Bible certainly conveys the same essence:

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A person reaps what he sows.
(Gal. 6:7)

All things whatsoever you would that men should do to you,
do even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
(Matthew 7:12)"
Karma 1

"Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done and is currently doing. The effects of those deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life."
Wiki Karma

**Julie** · 16 Dec 05,, 14:37

Originally Posted by Samudra

Any God that 'punishes' is not a God.

Absurd....that means I'm not being a parent by disciplining my children.

Look, Buddy, there are rules and consequences to everything we do on a daily basis. If not, there would be no need to have jails because there wouldn't be no such thing as criminals.

God has every right, moreso than we, to judge and punish, since he is the Father. He did not set the rules on paper, or blood.....he set them in stone, mind you, and he did not do it out of boredom, nor were scriptures written for our sole enjoyment. There are reasons for everything, whether we pay attention to them or not, is up to each individual.

Thank you THL.

**Samudra** · 16 Dec 05,, 15:37

THL,

You see, God does not involve itself in Karma.
Which is why so little has been said about God in Buddhism.

Julie asserting that suffering is because of 'disobedience' prompted that response from me.I dont see any place for Karma in this assertion.

Julie,

God need not 'discipline' somebody.
He can always make the perfect things.
Saves effort and time.So why did he not do that?

I have always wondered as to why the little infants, sometimes just days after being born suffer so much pain.Does that count as punishment too? If so, what was the crime of the child and how could it have committed the crime ?

(THL, I would appreciate if you could tell us what you think about this wrt Karma)

If the answer is "Yes", then there could be nothing more cruel than the thing we call God.

If I may ask, is your idea of God deeply influenced by Christianity ?

nor were scriptures written for our sole enjoyment

Which scriptures madam?

You see, if there were was a God and if he were to love us all, like one would love his children, and if he was all powerfull that he could change anything and everything,and if did not like the bad, why create the bad in the first place ? Afterall it is he who created everything.

**Samudra** · 16 Dec 05,, 15:45

it seems that the Bible certainly conveys the same essence:

Sorry for the double post, but I saw this only after I hit the 'Submit' button for the last post.

THL,I think the Bible's idea is entirely different from that propagated by Buddhism.
In the Bible, I talk about the verses you have quoted, the idea of a God that punishes is propagated whereas in Buddhism you cannot find such an idea.

Note that I have not spoken about Hinduism because it would be hard to base my arguments from a single thought derived from Hinduism,because the religion itself has been debating these concepts for centuries in the form of the six major schools of philosophies.

I'm sure you knew about it, I thought it might help Julie understand the differences a little easier.

You see, in some schools of Indian thought they view Buddhism(the original ideas propagated by Siddharatha himself) as the logical 'conclusion' of Indian philosophies.

**Julie** · 16 Dec 05,, 16:07

Sweetie, I never mentioned Karma....THL did.

I will not argue the basis of the existence or non-existence of a God. I am a Christian woman, and stand firm with my faith and belief.

We all want everything perfect for our children from their birth....but it just never seems to turn out that way does it? I believe God's original intention was the same for us....and he did things along and along in an attempt to right his plan. Even when he sent Jesus to round up the Jews, his son challenged his father's motives, and God literally hung him out to dry for the sake of people like us. Father, why have you forsaken me? I imagine his father enlightened him after his death, and Jesus came back to tell about it.

Just the belief in the existence of a God is not near enough hon. Think of it like a car in your driveway.....if you do not put gas in it, it will get you nowhere.

Without faith, just the mere belief in God will get you nowhere.

**Srirangan** · 16 Dec 05,, 16:10

Pantheism. Nature is god. We are part of this system. We are responsible for ourselves. Call it free will, or call it Karma.

Heaven/hell, believers/non-believers, infidels/kafirs .. all religious propaganda of the middle ages that have to be forgotten. Live a good life.

**Srirangan** · 16 Dec 05,, 16:12

The metaphysical engineers are happy to report that, to the best of their knowledge, the God you conceive is internally consistent and could exist in our universe. But they are less sure that what you have described deserves the name of God. She is not, for example, all-powerful. A God which knows everything or is totally benign may be a wonderful ideal, but is she really a God unless she has ultimate power?

We suspect that your God is not the traditional God of the Christian, Jewish or Muslim faiths.

That's true. I don't believe in an "Abrahamic" God.