Genital mutilation of children: German court rules male circumcision illegal.

[andrew]

Since the last thread on this theme was closed by one of the moderators, who is, I think, not objective because of his nationality, I have to post this news in a new thread.

In a groundbreaking decision, a regional court in Cologne, Germany has ruled Unnecessary Male Circumcision illegal.

The following post is based on a google translation of an article which appeared in the German Financial Times - you can read to google translation by clicking here

The ruling concerned a Muslim doctor who had circumcised a four-year-old boy at the request of the parents Two days later the boy was bleeding from his penis and the mother took him to the children's emergency room.

Local prosecutors became aware of the case and indicted the circumciser. The district court initially found the procedure to be legal but the prosecutor and she appealed.

At the appeal the district court ruled that the circumcision constituted "serious and irreversible impairment of physical integrity."

According to the article, this means that the circumcision of boys for non-medical reasons in future with be considered an assault and anyone who circumcises a boy in Germany is liable to prosecution.

Neither the parents nor the right to freedom of religion guaranteed in the Basic Law can justify this procedure, the court ruled.

Every year in Germany, several thousand boys are circumcised in their early years at the request of parents. It is the first time a German court has ruled the procedure is illegal.

The news is a huge victory for "intactavists" worldwide and the article acknowledges that a "massive resistance" to the practice is taking shape.

Ending Unnecessary Male Circumcision In The UK: German court rules male circumcision illegal

The last closed thread is here:
Question of genital mutilation of children

[kato]

Actually the German article doesn't refer to "unnecessary male circumcission", but to "religious-based male circumcision". There's a fine line of difference there.

[Doktor]

Actually the German article doesn't refer to "unnecessary male circumcission", but to "religious-based male circumcision". There's a fine line of difference there.

So, if I sent my son to the procedure because I want it OK, but if I'm doing it from religious manners it is forbiden

[TTL]

So will Germany no longer permit circumcission?

[dave lukins]

Actually the German article doesn't refer to "unnecessary male circumcission", but to "religious-based male circumcision". There's a fine line of difference there.

I think that 'fine line' may widen with different opinions.

[kato]

So will Germany no longer permit circumcission?

It's not a matter of permitting it. It was never "permitted". The court simply definitively defined circumcision as being an act harming another human being in line with §223 StGB, i.e. battery. It also defined that the parents' right to parental custody does not include the right to decide over the wellbeing of their child.

I think that 'fine line' may widen with different opinions.

If the decision stands (and i have no doubt this will be contested in various courts possibly up to EHRC level) most parents who want their child circumcised for whatever delusions they believe in will simply find a corrupt surgeon who will do it illegally and possibly even fake a phimosis diagnosis to protect himself. Or they go abroad, same as many Turkish-Germans already do for the procedure. Simple as that.

[TTL]

Or they go abroad, same as many Turkish-Germans already do for the procedure.

Wow I didn't now circumcission was not allowed. This is sad, not something I would expect from a liberal society like germany.

[kato]

They don't do it for legal reasons now, they do it because it's easier, cheaper and more convenient for the family to do it in Turkey.

[andrew]

I think the next logical step is to prosecute parents who take a child abroad for that procedure.
I hope the ruling will stand and Germany's European neighbors will follow that example.
Unfortunately, here in Russia a ban on that mutilating procedure is unlikely in the foreseeable future, since that will cause an outcry in Muslim republics.

[JAD_333]

Since the last thread on this theme was closed by one of the moderators, who is, I think, not objective because of his nationality, I have to post this news in a new thread.

Andrew, please follow the rules and not criticize moderator decisions in open forum. Thank you.

[bigross86]

I think the next logical step is to prosecute parents who take a child abroad for that procedure.
I hope the ruling will stand and Germany's European neighbors will follow that example.
Unfortunately, here in Russia a ban on that mutilating procedure is unlikely in the foreseeable future, since that will cause an outcry in Muslim republics.

If I travel on my Israeli passport to New Zealand, buy drugs and get caught by the cops, where am I tried, in Israel and New Zealand? I broke New Zealand law and am tried there. Israel has no right nor legal recourse to try me since I didn't break Israeli law within Israeli territory. Israel's jurisdiction ends at the border, or slightly beyond if they want to back that up with armed troops.

Weed is virtually decriminalized in Berlin and you can carry and smoke up to 10 grams without a real problem. Worst case it'll get confiscated. If I travel on my Israeli passport to Berlin, buy and smoke weed, Israel has no right nor legal recourse to try me since I didn't break Israeli law within Israeli territory. Israel's jurisdiction ends at the border, or slightly beyond if they want to back that up with armed troops.

There is not even a single shred of evidence allowing for a country to try it's citizens for not breaking another country's law when in that other country. Just because Catholic Ireland does that with abortion doesn't make it right

[kato]

Weed is virtually decriminalized in Berlin and you can carry and smoke up to 10 grams without a real problem. Worst case it'll get confiscated.

Umm... no. Worst case you land in jail for a couple months until your court case, lose your driver license for life (at least for driving within Germany), pay a couple thousand bucks fine, get deported and get banned from entering Germany for the next five years.

There is not even a single shred of evidence allowing for a country to try it's citizens for not breaking another country's law when in that other country.

Germany can try its citizens for crimes committed abroad, depending on crime by either applying German or foreign law.

Bringing this back to circumcision, if a parent takes their child to Turkey to get circumcised and returns with them to Germany they're pretty much sure to lose custody of the child under the new definition.

[bigross86]

Umm... no. Worst case you land in jail for a couple months until your court case, lose your driver license for life (at least for driving within Germany), pay a couple thousand bucks fine, get deported and get banned from entering Germany for the next five years.


Germany can try its citizens for crimes committed abroad, depending on crime by either applying German or foreign law.

Bringing this back to circumcision, if a parent takes their child to Turkey to get circumcised and returns with them to Germany they're pretty much sure to lose custody of the child under the new definition.

I was referring to de facto, not de jure. I've got plenty of friends that go to Berlin now that Amsterdam is no longer weed-friendly. They say cops in Berlin walk by and don't even care.

[Chogy]

I think the next logical step is to prosecute parents who take a child abroad for that procedure.
I hope the ruling will stand and Germany's European neighbors will follow that example.
Unfortunately, here in Russia a ban on that mutilating procedure is unlikely in the foreseeable future, since that will cause an outcry in Muslim republics.

You're losing me here. In Peru, Coca (cocaine leaf) tea is legal. Let's say I travel to Peru and drink Coca tea. When I return to the USA, should I be arrested and prosecuted for the act?

[Big K]

this will only lead to illegal circumcission and many other cases of lack of hygene...

and what about Jews and other societies?