What do you think about Islam

[dalem]

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

I have no brothers walking with C4 attached to their vests and I did tell it all to several mullahs... They weren't too happy about hearing enlightened interpretations of these verses. Muslims have different groups of though. You just choose to see us all like THEM.

Those are the ones I hear most from, yes.

And let me be clear here - I talk about the group of "Muslims" because the ones I hear most from - the ones with the C4 vests and bloodlust for infidels - very very loudly call themselves Muslims.

By "brother" I only mean to draw attention to the fact that there are people claiming to be of your faith with that message, not that I think you necessarily have anything truly in common with them.

If the answer is for the main mass of Islam to "purge" the Wahhabbis out of the faith, than I can accept that.

-dale

[dalem]

Here's what I want to see and hear more of. It's linked from the Corner on National Review Online, I think here.

-dale

"MODERATE MUSLIMS SPEAK OUT [Cliff May]
On Saturday, Free Muslims Against Terrorism (FMAT) and a number of other organizations held an anti-terrorism demonstration in Washington. Among the speakers was Mohamed Eljahmi, a long-time friend and the brother of imprisoned Libyan dissident Fathi Eljahmi.

Mohamed told the crowd that he and others had come "to send a message of hope and support to the people of the Greater Middle East in their struggle to build free and democratic societies. We also salute the men and women of the US armed forces, who continue to sacrifice for the cause of freedom and liberty in the Greater Middle East.

"Free societies follow the rule of law, abhor violence, abhor anti-Semitism and abhor religious intolerance, while repressed societies create environments of despair and hate. The Free World must tell the Arab tyrants, that decades-long abuse and repression of their people must end." The rest of his remarks are here.

Also, to see and hear a superb, principled and impassioned speech by Imam Khaleel Mohammed click here."

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by dalem

Here's what I want to see and hear more of. It's linked from the Corner on National Review Online, I think here.

-dale

Fine, as far as it goes. But did you see the picture of the 'crowd'?



There is no crowd, but a gaggle of about two dozen.

In an American city with one of the largest Muslim populations in all of North America.

Lots of work to do, it seems.

[dalem]

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Fine, as far as it goes. But did you see the picture of the 'crowd'?

There is no crowd, but a gaggle of about two dozen.

In an American city with one of the largest Muslim populations in all of North America.

Lots of work to do, it seems.

I know. But refusing to acknowledge the people who try to help from the inside isn't going to help anybody either.

-dale

[Avenger]

Originally Posted by ChrisF202

Some good Muslims (like Lunatock on this forum for example) and some bad Muslims. But, I will say that unless the good Muslims take control that the religion of Islam will probably be the cause of the end of the world.

Look, they took over litterly all of Africa since the end of the colonial era and now are starting on Asia, once that is done I think we know whos next (Europe) and then the Americas. Maybe im just a wacko, but it seems to me like they are trying to take back all they lost in the Crusades, Reconquista, etc if not take over the whole world.

Right, I seem to recall a map of the world found somewhere in Afghanistan that showed the future world all in green to indicate the spread of Islam. But they won't come close to achieving it, as the sort of society they aspire to is what became of Afghanistan under the Taliban, before we liberated it.

I appreciate Asim's speaking out for moderation, and my guess is that the majority of Muslims are reasonable, good people who want peace. But they do have to control their extremists, as they are not helping anyone, least of all their fellow Muslims.

[Asim Aquil]

As I said, my sole concern is with Pakistan. We have a very vocal struggle against relgious extremism. None of us are against Islam as a religion, since that is the personal belief of a person, but that doesn't mean we can't speak up against religious intolerance within the country.

We can't really "purge" the 'wahhabis' out, but we can out-talk, out-debate them. They have sermons, we have the television media. They write hate-infested books, we use the print media. Now what we can't do is, tie C4 on ourselves and blow them up!

[Asim Aquil]

But they do have to control their extremists, as they are not helping anyone, least of all their fellow Muslims.

One of the things I often repeat, "Their struggle for Islam, will destroy it one day". IMO, secularism in Pakistan might be the only way to protect Islam, as well. We're 95% Muslim, that's not going to vanish away, if we treated the non-Muslims equally.

[Srirangan]

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

One of the things I often repeat, "Their struggle for Islam, will destroy it one day". IMO, secularism in Pakistan might be the only way to protect Islam, as well. We're 95% Muslim, that's not going to vanish away, if we treated the non-Muslims equally.

The ideas of Pakistan and Secularism are mutually exclusive. Pak was created as a muslim land seperate from the rest of the secular subcontinent. If Pak adopts secularism it'll once again prove the flawed 2 nation theory.

[Asim Aquil]

Pak was created as a secular state. By large it remained so till General Zia showed up into the scene during the Soviet-Afghan war and created all these religious mujahideen groups.

Pak was created for the minorities of India, look up all the texts and interviews on secularism, of Jinnah the creator of Pakistan. His interpretation of Islam, was to uphold religious equality and tolerance. The claim that Pakistan was created as an Islamic state is a lie that is perpetrated by religious extremists within Pakistan.

… If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, … is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make. …we must learn a lesson from this [our past experience]. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the business of the state … we are starting in the days when there is no discrimination between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste, or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State…. I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state

When I say I'm thinking solely for Pakistan; that thought is greatly inspired by these words of Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. Who gave up his health and eventually his life to uphold these ideals under which Pakistan was formed.

Question: “Will Pakistan be a secular or theocratic state?”

Mr. M.A. Jinnah: “You are asking me a question that is absurd. I do not know what a theocratic state means.”

…Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan

These are some of the ideas behind Pakistan, that have been inhibited by the Mullah school of thought within Pakistan. We're out to show the truth behind the ideals of Pakistan.

[Jay]

Actually, if Pakistan was created for the minorities in India, then how come the Sikhs by far then the largest minority repatriated to India from then Pakistan??

Its just not Zia that made Pakistan an Islamic Republic, he simply acclerated the development, its the history of Sub continent, and the animosity between religions.

[hammer]

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

We're 95% Muslim, that's not going to vanish away, if we treated the non-Muslims equally.

so what happens when the numbers change?! what happens ,lets say when the muslims are 55% and the others are 45% ?

[Srirangan]

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Pak was created as a secular state. By large it remained so till General Zia showed up into the scene during the Soviet-Afghan war and created all these religious mujahideen groups.

Asim, That my friend is you openly lying and probably insulting the intelligence of the members of WAB.

Pakistan was not created a secular state. Pakistan was created as the home for muslims in South Asia. The very idea of Pakistan is mutually exclusive from the idea of Secularism. From its very initiation pakistan was Islamic and not secular. If Pakistan was secular the very idea of Pakistan would be no different from the idea of India.

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

Pak was created for the minorities of India, look up all the texts and interviews on secularism, of Jinnah the creator of Pakistan. His interpretation of Islam, was to uphold religious equality and tolerance. The claim that Pakistan was created as an Islamic state is a lie that is perpetrated by religious extremists within Pakistan.

Another big shameless lie. Pakistan was not a home for the minorities of South Asia. Pak was the home for muslims of South Asia. Minorities such as christians, jews, sikhs, budhists, jains, parsis and others left Pakistan along with the hindus.

Why are you denying history and basic underlying facts that led to the creation of Pak? The two nation theory was based on the fact that the muslim's considered themselves "purer" than the rest of South Asia and wanted a seperate country, namely Pakistan, the land of the pure. If you call Zionism racists, Pakistanism is no less.

Allow me to quote facts from Wikipedia for you:

Pakistan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan, or Islami Jamhooriya-e-Pakistan, in Urdu, or Pakistan, is a country located in South Asia and the Greater Middle East. The country borders India, Iran, Afghanistan, the China and the Arabian Sea.
...
Lahore Resolution of 1940

In 1940, Jinnah called a general session of the All India Muslim League in Lahore to discuss the situation that had arisen due to the outbreak of the Second World War and the Government of India joining the war without taking the opinion of the Indian leaders. The meeting was also aimed at analyzing the reasons that led to the defeat of the Muslim League in the general election of 1937 in the Muslim majority provinces. Jinnah, in his speech, criticised the Congress and the nationalist Muslims, and espoused the Two-Nation Theory and the reasons for the demand for separate Muslim homelands. Sikandar Hayat Khan, the Chief Minister of the Punjab, drafted the original Lahore Resolution, which was placed before the Subject Committee of the All India Muslim League for discussion and amendments. The resolution, radically amended by the subject committee, was moved in the general session by Shere-Bangla A.K. Fazlul Huq, the Chief Minister of Bengal, on 23 March and was supported by Choudhury Khaliquzzaman and other muslim leaders. The Lahore Resolution ran as follows:

That the areas where the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the Northwestern and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute 'independent states' in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.

The Resolution was adopted on 24 March 1940 with great enthusiasm.

[Asim Aquil]

Originally Posted by srirangan

Asim, That my friend is you openly lying and probably insulting the intelligence of the members of WAB.

Pakistan was not created a secular state. Pakistan was created as the home for muslims in South Asia. The very idea of Pakistan is mutually exclusive from the idea of Secularism. From its very initiation pakistan was Islamic and not secular. If Pakistan was secular the very idea of Pakistan would be no different from the idea of India.



Another big shameless lie. Pakistan was not a home for the minorities of South Asia. Pak was the home for muslims of South Asia. Minorities such as christians, jews, sikhs, budhists, jains, parsis and others left Pakistan along with the hindus.

Why are you denying history and basic underlying facts that led to the creation of Pak? The two nation theory was based on the fact that the muslim's considered themselves "purer" than the rest of South Asia and wanted a seperate country, namely Pakistan, the land of the pure. If you call Zionism racists, Pakistanism is no less.

Allow me to quote facts from Wikipedia for you:

you have given quotes from some guys' opinion on Pakistan, I've given you direct quotes from Jinnah the guy who made Pakistan. I agree the common perception is that, since the Mullahs within Pakistan have hyped this theory that Pakistan was made for the Muslims, where as thats not true. Quotation from everything Jinnah said and did proves this claim wrong.

Jinnah fought against the Islamic Mullahs even during the time of partition with India, they were by large against the formation of Pakistan and wanted to remain with India. As I've repeatedly said, the Muslims were the largest minorities within India. You've got something on this then talk, stop making baseless allegations to call me a liar. Haha this is living proof that Islam isn't the only religion with 'Mullahs'.

[Srirangan]

I was not quoting some "guys" opinion. I was quoting facts. The entire two nation theory was based on seperate muslim identity. Ethnic cleansing took place in Pak after and during the partition. Here are some more facts and figures:

Figure 1: Comparison of Ethnic Mix - 1941 and 1951

West Pakistan


East Pakistan


And do you want some Jinnah quotes, well here they are:

Originally Posted by Jinnah

“Direct Action by Muslims will lead to one hundred times more destruction than the Direct Action of the Hindus."

Here's the complete article with more figures and numbers, and sources listed:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITO...2/sridhar.html

[Asim Aquil]

This thread is about Islam, not Jinnah. You've corrupted this thread enough.

However to end I will add that your quote is totally irrelevant since it does not prove what Jinnah wanted out of Pakistan, but mine specifically states that Pakistan was not meant to be a theocratic state. Jinnah died in 1948, just 1year after Pakistan's formation.