Is Athiesm responsible for the tryants of the 20th century?

[zara]

Ive been watching quite a few religious/atheist debates, with the likes of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Hitchens etc..


One charge that the religious always bring up that while Religious dogma may have caused the crusades, inquisition, 9/11 etc. Atheism is responsible for the far greater crimes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot.


Is this a fair criticism do you think?

[Tarek Morgen]

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Hitler, Mein Kampf.

[fareasterner]

Originally Posted by zara

Ive been watching quite a few religious/atheist debates, with the likes of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Hitchens etc..


One charge that the religious always bring up that while Religious dogma may have caused the crusades, inquisition, 9/11 etc. Atheism is responsible for the far greater crimes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot.


Is this a fair criticism do you think?

I do not think that Stalin was atheist. He regarded Bolshevik’s atheistic propaganda as trash. He spent 9 years in seminary. During WWII he helped much to Orthodox Church. It is hard to say, if it was only conjecture, but in several Moscow churches were read burial services at Stalin’s death. I do not know if Hitler was atheist, but surely he believed in supernatural forces, and German soldiers wore words “Gott mit uns” on their belt buckles. About Pol Pot beliefs I do not know anything. Chinamen were not religious from ancient times, but they were having philosophy instead.

[zara]

Well Hitler may have used Religion to his own ends, or perhaps he was in some sense religious,

Mein Kampf was written when he was in prison, but he made the following comments once he was in power:


"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ******s? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea."

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."

[Tarek Morgen]

Looks like you are mostly using quotes from what is know in English as "Hitler's Table Talk". (It is pretty much the only source were "quotes" like this are found).

For this I would suggest reading for example this link:

Hitler's Table Talk

[zara]

Interesting...

Dawkins and Harrris both protested that we cant say for sure that Hitler was an atheist or not. (athough Christopher Hitchens tries to argue that Hitler was religous)

Leaving him aside though, despite what far easterner has said, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were certaintly atheists.

[Rumrunner]

Originally Posted by zara

One charge that the religious always bring up that while Religious dogma may have caused the crusades, inquisition, 9/11 etc. Atheism is responsible for the far greater crimes of Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot.

You think Stalin Hitler Mao and Pol Pot did worse than the crusades and inquisiton?

[zara]

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

I think just the opposite. Athiests believe in no religion, no god. I believe that all you mentioned had a belief in a god and a couple actually religion. Where did any of them profess to not have a belief in any god?

Mao

'Religion is Poison'

Religion - Wikiquote


I cant seem to find an online source for this, but I read in 'Mao, the unknown story' by Jung Chang a quote where he said that he didn't care if people thought well of him after he was dead, because there was no God and no afterlife therefore nothing mattered once he was gone.


Stalin

"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God... all this talk about God is sheer nonsense." - E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin

God's not unjust, he doesn't actually exist. We've been deceived. If God existed, he'd have made the world more just... I'll lend you a book and you'll see."

Joseph Stalin - Wikiquote


Cant find any direct quote of Pol Pot claiming to be athiest, but he did abolish all religion in Kampuchea.

[zara]

Originally Posted by Rumrunner

You think Stalin Hitler Mao and Pol Pot did worse than the crusades and inquisiton?

Stalin killed over 20 million! Mao killed between 50 and 70 million!

I dont think the crusades got any where near that amount!

[crooks]

Originally Posted by zara

Is this a fair criticism do you think?

No, those men didn't do their actions in the name of athiesm or to rid the world of religion, but for power (a far greater religion!).

Athiesm is a mostly honourable tradition, with firm underpinnings in reality, and I'm not even an Athiest.

[Triple C]

Both National Socialism and Stalinism are godless religions. Replace the messiah with the master race or the proletariat, kingdom come with the Third Reich or socialist Utopia, and you have Nazism and Communism. I see both ideologies as secular substitutes for religion, and their hostilities towards other religions confessional. Hitler regarded Christianity as a corrupt Jewish invention, which is a vulgar interpretation of Nietzsche. However, he does see a "Germanic" religion, especially a civil religion, a very useful invention. It is also worth noting that the social democrats, who were center-left atheists, opposed Hitler, whereas large numbers of Protestant churches mostly fell to National Socialism.

[Rumrunner]

Originally Posted by zara

Stalin killed over 20 million! Mao killed between 50 and 70 million!

I dont think the crusades got any where near that amount!

Perhaps they didnt, but there really arent any reliable sources on the amount of belligerent/civilian deaths from the Crusades or Inquisiton.

[cr9527]

Originally Posted by Triple C

Both National Socialism and Stalinism are godless religions. Replace the messiah with the master race or the proletariat, kingdom come with the Third Reich or socialist Utopia, and you have Nazism and Communism. I see both ideologies as secular substitutes for religion, and their hostilities towards other religions confessional. Hitler regarded Christianity as a corrupt Jewish invention, which is a vulgar interpretation of Nietzsche. However, he does see a "Germanic" religion, especially a civil religion, a very useful invention. It is also worth noting that the social democrats, who were center-left atheists, opposed Hitler, whereas large numbers of Protestant churches mostly fell to National Socialism.

The Nazis did infact utilize the catholic church to their benefit. Whether or not they were secular is uncertain.
Communism is certainly secular, however, being such, few of their actions were based upon this idea.

[HillWarrior]

^^ However, if one considered the ratio of fatalities to the total population of the world for the crusades and inquisition, and the same ratio for Hitler, Mao and Stalin's pogroms which would be higher? Could that perhaps be a way to compare the two?

ie. (Total fatalities-crusades+inquisition)/Weighted Average-world population

vs

(Total fatalities-Mao+Stalin+Hitler(assuming he was an atheist)+Pol Pot+Castro etc)/Weighted average of the

world Population

Which would be higher?

[US_MiltCom]

Originally Posted by crooks

No, those men didn't do their actions in the name of athiesm or to rid the world of religion, but for power (a far greater religion!).

Precisely. Religion has no doubt been responsible for some terrible tragedies, some some great goods I suppose, but the will to power is a universal drive.