100 Members - Page 5

2DREZQ · 09-30-2003, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ziska
But would arabs and the US even be enemies if the US was neutral on the Israel/Palestine issue?

Yes. It's to late to back away now. The Islamic east must adopt a western secular political worldview, or perish. Those who cannot or will not divorce there religious faith from government cannot survive in the 21st century, or they must drag the world back to the 15th.

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 10:20 AM

Besides, they hated the US waaaay before the country of Israel was even founded. What I find curious is that out of both states that the British founded, Jordan/Trans-Jordan and Palestine/Israel, it is the Israeli's, the so-called sworn enemies of Islam who have helped the refugees from the War of Independence while the Jordanians to absolutely nothing to help their brethren. On the other hand, the Jordanians don't help them either.

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 10:30 AM

Yes, the wealthy Arab sheikdoms could have done a lot for their brothers in Palestine after the formation of Israel but didnt. What is one of the Pillars Of Islam? Charity? Hmmm...

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 10:56 AM

I know the three pillars of Judaism are Torah, Work, and Charity.

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 11:28 AM

Well, when you get right down to it, Jews, Muslims and Christians are all "Children Of The Book" (Remember that line from Sum Of All Fears Ben?)

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 11:29 AM

Which is the reason why the Christians and Jews weren't exterminated when the Muslims were in power. Instead they paid a special protection tax. Not to say life didn't suck, but they were stil alive...

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 11:32 AM

It was either Ghosn or Qati who referred to the Americans as "misguided followers of Jesus the Prophet" but still Children of the Book. I found it a very interesting musing on his part.

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 11:37 AM

I think it was Ghosn. Been quite a while since I've read that book. I'll read it in a couple days when I get bored with the book I have now...

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 11:57 AM

I just bought Red Rabbit a week ago and read it in 2 days (as opposed to my usual marathon all-nighter). It was OK, I really liked going back to the Cold War setting again with some of my favorite characters. I just wish Clancy would stop with the constant pontificating. It seemed to get more and more annoying (and longer) with each passing book.
I havent even bothered with his latest, and probably won't until it comes out in paperback.
The Bear and the Dragon was good, especially all the parts with Bonderenko in the Far East. My biggest problems were A.) How it was such a re-write of Red Storm Rising during the last half and B.) how it ended so abruptly.

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 12:39 PM

I started Red Rabbit but I couldn't get into it. Didn't know a new one came out. I think the abrupt ending is characteristic to most Clancy books (Exec. Orders, Debt of Honor). Not so sure about the RSR resemblance.

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 12:52 PM

The newest Clancy is called The Teeth of the Tiger . Supposedly it's shorter than his usual books and involved Jack Ryan Jr and some heretofore unknown Ryan relatives.

A trick for reading Red Rabbit: Read Patriot Games again, then Red Rabbit, then Hunt and then Cardinal of the Kremlin (one of my all time favorites, especially the scenes in Moscow and the Russian "Star Wars" base in Dushanbe.).

As for Bear and the Dragon, there is the over-all plotline: The Chinese need oil and the Russians have it, so let's launch an ill-conceived war to go get it.
Several lines of dialogue were lifted straight from RSR into BATD. It was simply the Chinese Politburo instead of the Soviet Politburo saying the lines.
There were many many similiarities between the two, although with lots of twists like the nuclear launch

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 14:25 PM

I know the themes of the two are similar, but the Russians just needed the oil. The ChiComms were just going for the money.

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 14:43 PM

Better re-read Bear and the Dragon. They needed money certainly (the gold field) but it was the oil they needed most of all. But then this is true of any industrialized nation, particularly one with such a large military like the PRC

bigross86 · 09-30-2003, 15:03 PM

Whatever. I still thing Hunt is the greatest of them all...

**TopHatter** · 09-30-2003, 16:23 PM

It was the first and I guess the best in a lot of ways.
I'm convinced Clancy had read that book on Viktor Belenko because a lot of the things Belenko wrote turned up in Hunt.
Same thing happened in Red Storm Rising. I'm sure Clancy read this book by Sir John Hackett I think was called Third World War or World War III, something like that.

09-30-2003, 10:20 AM	#62 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	Besides, they hated the US waaaay before the country of Israel was even founded. What I find curious is that out of both states that the British founded, Jordan/Trans-Jordan and Palestine/Israel, it is the Israeli's, the so-called sworn enemies of Islam who have helped the refugees from the War of Independence while the Jordanians to absolutely nothing to help their brethren. On the other hand, the Jordanians don't help them either. __________________ You're a naughty girl, go to my room!

09-30-2003, 10:30 AM	#63 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	Yes, the wealthy Arab sheikdoms could have done a lot for their brothers in Palestine after the formation of Israel but didnt. What is one of the Pillars Of Islam? Charity? Hmmm... __________________ If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader. ~John Quincy Adams

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09-30-2003, 10:56 AM	#64 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	I know the three pillars of Judaism are Torah, Work, and Charity.

09-30-2003, 11:28 AM	#65 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	Well, when you get right down to it, Jews, Muslims and Christians are all "Children Of The Book" (Remember that line from Sum Of All Fears Ben?)

09-30-2003, 11:29 AM	#66 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	Which is the reason why the Christians and Jews weren't exterminated when the Muslims were in power. Instead they paid a special protection tax. Not to say life didn't suck, but they were stil alive...

09-30-2003, 11:32 AM	#67 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	It was either Ghosn or Qati who referred to the Americans as "misguided followers of Jesus the Prophet" but still Children of the Book. I found it a very interesting musing on his part.

09-30-2003, 11:37 AM	#68 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	I think it was Ghosn. Been quite a while since I've read that book. I'll read it in a couple days when I get bored with the book I have now...

09-30-2003, 11:57 AM	#69 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	I just bought Red Rabbit a week ago and read it in 2 days (as opposed to my usual marathon all-nighter). It was OK, I really liked going back to the Cold War setting again with some of my favorite characters. I just wish Clancy would stop with the constant pontificating. It seemed to get more and more annoying (and longer) with each passing book. I havent even bothered with his latest, and probably won't until it comes out in paperback. The Bear and the Dragon was good, especially all the parts with Bonderenko in the Far East. My biggest problems were A.) How it was such a re-write of Red Storm Rising during the last half and B.) how it ended so abruptly.

09-30-2003, 12:39 PM	#70 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	I started Red Rabbit but I couldn't get into it. Didn't know a new one came out. I think the abrupt ending is characteristic to most Clancy books (Exec. Orders, Debt of Honor). Not so sure about the RSR resemblance.

09-30-2003, 12:52 PM	#71 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	The newest Clancy is called The Teeth of the Tiger . Supposedly it's shorter than his usual books and involved Jack Ryan Jr and some heretofore unknown Ryan relatives. A trick for reading Red Rabbit: Read Patriot Games again, then Red Rabbit, then Hunt and then Cardinal of the Kremlin (one of my all time favorites, especially the scenes in Moscow and the Russian "Star Wars" base in Dushanbe.). As for Bear and the Dragon, there is the over-all plotline: The Chinese need oil and the Russians have it, so let's launch an ill-conceived war to go get it. Several lines of dialogue were lifted straight from RSR into BATD. It was simply the Chinese Politburo instead of the Soviet Politburo saying the lines. There were many many similiarities between the two, although with lots of twists like the nuclear launch

09-30-2003, 14:25 PM	#72 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	I know the themes of the two are similar, but the Russians just needed the oil. The ChiComms were just going for the money.

09-30-2003, 14:43 PM	#73 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	Better re-read Bear and the Dragon. They needed money certainly (the gold field) but it was the oil they needed most of all. But then this is true of any industrialized nation, particularly one with such a large military like the PRC

09-30-2003, 15:03 PM	#74 (permalink)
bigross86 401 Ikvot Habarzel *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-07-03 Location: Ra'anana, Israel Posts: 3,148	Whatever. I still thing Hunt is the greatest of them all...

09-30-2003, 16:23 PM	#75 (permalink)
TopHatter Administrator Join Date: 09-03-03 Location: Fort Myers FL Posts: 9,825 Country:	It was the first and I guess the best in a lot of ways. I'm convinced Clancy had read that book on Viktor Belenko because a lot of the things Belenko wrote turned up in Hunt. Same thing happened in Red Storm Rising. I'm sure Clancy read this book by Sir John Hackett I think was called Third World War or World War III, something like that.

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