Moved: Government distrust from technology thread

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by entropy

In Sweden they didn't bother with passports. They had personal numbers, and every policeman had a small laptop-like device. If you entered the personal number in it, all of your data were shown.

That'll give ACLU and the gun lobby a heart attack if implemented here. Not to mention calls of racism from the Mexican government.

[entropy]

Originally Posted by gunnut

That'll give ACLU and the gun lobby a heart attack if implemented here. Not to mention calls of racism from the Mexican government.

Why the gun lobby and ACLU?

But I do hear the Mexicans weep about racism already while thinking about a possible implementation.

It was a very good system. I don't understand what it has to do with Big Brother.

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by entropy

Why the gun lobby and ACLU?

But I do hear the Mexicans weep about racism already while thinking about a possible implementation.

It was a very good system. I don't understand what it has to do with Big Brother.

ACLU doesn't want nationalized ID because it interferes with their open border policy. They want people to come in freely, without government monitor.

The gun lobby doesn't want nationalized ID because it can be easily tied to or adding on the database of what guns people buy. These are very conservative, states rights, anti federal government people. They don't want federal anything.

It also has to do with the nanny state. We don't want the government to tell us what to do. We're Americans. We hate the government. The bigger it is, the more we hate it.

This should help you understand where we're coming from:

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

[entropy]

Originally Posted by gunnut

ACLU doesn't want nationalized ID because it interferes with their open border policy. They want people to come in freely, without government monitor.

The gun lobby doesn't want nationalized ID because it can be easily tied to or adding on the database of what guns people buy. These are very conservative, states rights, anti federal government people. They don't want federal anything.

It also has to do with the nanny state. We don't want the government to tell us what to do. We're Americans. We hate the government. The bigger it is, the more we hate it.

It would stop illegal immigration, it would make efficient bureaucracy (what a contradictio in terminis), it would make travel and such more easy.

As for the guns... as long as there are laws protecting your gun buyer privacy, you have no fear.

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by entropy

As for the guns... as long as there are laws protecting your gun buyer privacy, you have no fear.

We have no fear from our fellow citizens or even the corporations. We fear the government. If there's a list of gun ownership and record then the government can always take our guns away from us by passing a law. That's what happened to Australia.

This is how the scam works:
1. pass a law that requires certain type of guns to be registered
2. law abiding citizens are fooled into registering because they are "law abiding"
3. pass another law that bans certain type of firearms
4. lo and behold, the government has a list of those who own that type of gun
5. send agents to collect them using the registry the owners filled out on their own free will

Now you know why we don't like centralized registries. We are Americans. We distrust our government. We view our government as a necessary evil rather than a benevolent caretaker. That's the euro socialist view.

[entropy]

Originally Posted by gunnut

We have no fear from our fellow citizens or even the corporations. We fear the government. If there's a list of gun ownership and record then the government can always take our guns away from us by passing a law. That's what happened to Australia.

This is how the scam works:
1. pass a law that requires certain type of guns to be registered
2. law abiding citizens are fooled into registering because they are "law abiding"
3. pass another law that bans certain type of firearms
4. lo and behold, the government has a list of those who own that type of gun
5. send agents to collect them using the registry the owners filled out on their own free will

Now you know why we don't like centralized registries. We are Americans. We distrust our government. We view our government as a necessary evil rather than a benevolent caretaker. That's the euro socialist view.

So you have no idea of who lives in your country?

[Bluesman]

Originally Posted by entropy

So you have no idea of who lives in your country?

Purty much. And that's the OTHER reason we don't trust the government: they scammed us on immigartion once before by claiming that we'd have an amnesty, just this once, and then, hooboy, NO illegal aliens would cross the border.

In actual fact, illegal immigration exploded, and it's still in a rocket-like trajectory. We never got what we were promised: a border under control.

Sorry to drag this into the weeds. Hijack over.

[entropy]

Originally Posted by Bluesman

Purty much. And that's the OTHER reason we don't trust the government: they scammed us on immigartion once before by claiming that we'd have an amnesty, just this once, and then, hooboy, NO illegal aliens would cross the border.

In actual fact, illegal immigration exploded, and it's still in a rocket-like trajectory. We never got what we were promised: a border under control.

Sorry to drag this into the weeds. Hijack over.

Sir,

I'd like to discuss government distrust in a separate thread. Is it possible to move some of the posts?

[Parihaka]

Originally Posted by entropy

Sir,

I'd like to discuss government distrust in a separate thread. Is it possible to move some of the posts?

Done.

[entropy]

Thank you.


Bluesman,

What I do not understand completely is for example the relation between national interest and government. For example, if a war has to be fought, how do you know the government isn't lying?

Then, how does distrust affect voting?

And what about government services that are impossible to provide by private companies?

[dalem]

Entropy-

I'll repost something I wrote in the "Presidential Term Limits" thread. I think it has relevance here too:

In my opinion, the contradiction inherent in the Founding Fathers' vision is that for their institutions to work as designed, they must be staffed and populated by people who mistrust, or even hate, those very institutions.

Because no one seeks to limit the growth or power of what they love.

I don't think it gets much more complicated than that, really.

-dale

[gunnut]

Originally Posted by entropy

Thank you.


Bluesman,

What I do not understand completely is for example the relation between national interest and government. For example, if a war has to be fought, how do you know the government isn't lying?

By our very own distrusting nature we can ensure the government doesn't lie through its teeth. There will always be people there whose sole mission in life is to prove that government is lying to us. All we have to do is take all these information and judge for ourselves to see which one makes more sense. The government or those who say the government is lying (on a specific issue).

For example: 9-11. Government says Al Queda did it. Rosie said government did it. We take both sides and look at which theory is more plausible. Most think the government is telling the truth, while the celebrities believe the government is lying. You be the judge.

Originally Posted by entropy

Then, how does distrust affect voting?

We find the one that appears to lie less...

Originally Posted by entropy

And what about government services that are impossible to provide by private companies?

Private companies can provide just about everything you want. The difference is pricing. Private companies can do everything cheaper, with higher efficiency. However with subsidies, government services "appears" to be cheaper. Remember, private companies' services are pay as you go while government collects a periodic lumpsum charge from you regardless of the services you use.

The only thing that a government does well is prestige. Private industries don't normally get involved in pissing contests because there's no profit. Right now, there's no profit to go to the moon, so no one does that. We did it in 1969 because we were trying to see if we can piss farther than the Soviets. We did. Yay. Now what?

If there's money to be made, someone will do it. Space travel used to be the domain of government agencies because it was expensive and there's no profit. It was a pissing contests with the Soviets. Now Burt Rutan and Richard Branson have teamed up to offer space travel (albeit only suborbital) for the rich (not even super rich, just rich will be able to afford it). We just might see orbital hotels within our life time.

Government is a necessary evil. It is not our caretaker. That is the fundamental difference between us and the euros.