Is calling "Monkey" is racism?

[bolo121]

Originally Posted by Bigfella

So India takes the high moral ground by calling one of our players subhuman? yeah, that'll show us.

Bigfella monkey is not a racist pejorative commonly used in India
Even i have been called monkey on occasion albeit in malayalam (regional south indian language)
Also there is only the word of two australian players to say that harbhajan said that word
Sadly by their conduct on numerous occasions the members of the australian team have long ago given up any credibility they had.
And also as dave pointed out earlier Harbhajan is a Punjabi, when angry he probably would shout in his native tongue.

[devgupt]

Originally Posted by Bigfella

I am going to be rapidly outnumbered on this thread, so I'm going to respond as best I can & then leave you all to wallow in your own delusions.

Cricinfo - Latif banned for five matches over disputed catch

It is an incident of 2003
"As captain a lot of responsibility falls of Rashid Latif and he committed a serious offence by claiming that (unfair) catch which constitutes unfair play and a level-three offence of ICC code of conduct (offensive and penalties). Therefore, the Pakistani captain shall be banned for five one-day internationals," Procter said.

Just go through this link and answer why same treatment should not be meted out to your captain of high integrity

[devgupt]

CRICKET: Lehmann charged over racist comments | Independent, The (London) | Find Articles at BNET.com

One more link for you to go through so that you know how high standards your cricket team maintains in offensive behaviour

[devgupt]

Remeber the last champions trophy which took place in India- the scene where the australian players were caught on camera shoving BCCI president Sharad Pawar out of the way.There are several such instances of Ricky Ponting's men uncivilized behaviour

[lemontree]

bigfella,

The well-known cricket columnist Peter Roebuck demanded that Pointing be sacked as captain....you must think even he is deluded.

[Bigfella]

[

Nobody claimed Indian spectator is innocent. Culprits were immediately removed from stadium in Mumbai.

Really? ALL those making racist gestures or chants were removed? I don't think so. In fact, I have seen film of an Australian who reacted angrily (and without racist language) to the Indian crowd being removed hmself by a heavily armed policeman.

Prove that Harbhajan uttered those words in the ground. Umpires didn't heard it, Microphones didn't capture it. Procter has issued the ban on Harbhajan on the admission of ‘Aussies’ Matthew Hayden and Michael Clarke, both of whom were standing in the slip region and quite far from the action, that Harbhajan uttered ‘monkey’ word. Sachin Tendulkar was standing right next to Bhajji.

The match referee heard all the testimony & made his decision after a lengthy hearing. I will trust his 8 hours of hearing testimony over the few minutes of edited footage you& I have seen.

Can you please elaborate on this, we can go ahead on discussing specific issues. Remember, Australians were known for sledging in the field. They may not have made racist comment, but the word b*****d carries lot of weightage in India.

Sorry, that dog won't hunt. Anyone who has spent any time with Australians in virtually any context will be familiar with the way we use the word 'bastard'. it is not used to imply lack of patentage here. If, as claimed, Indians have suffered under a barrage of sledging lo these long years then they would have heard the word. If Indians find the term particularly offensive they have had decades to make this clear, as we did with 'monkey'. As far as I know this has not been done. The report of Hogg was simply a pathetic attempt at a 'square up'.

I can give you numerous examples, when sub-continental players were fined heavily for minor misbehaviors, but others let go off.

So what? I can give you examples of Australians being fined for things that either didn't happen on the field, or didn't happen at all (Glen McGrath allegedly spitting at an Indian player being a case in point - the side on shot was deceptive, the end-on shot showed McGrath many metres away from the player).

Forget past, in the current series, When Yuvraj made delay in leaving the crease, there was heavy pressure on match refree to fine him. But when Ricky did the samething, I have not seen a single line in media, that anyone urging to fine him

And here we have a classic example of the great double standard at play here. You are complaining about alleged pressure on a match referee to fine a player (I believe the penalty has been voided). Yet you seem unconcerned with a cricket team blackmailing the ICC into changing umpires & ignoring its own match officials.

In Mumbai, the person who was making monkey gesture was thrown out of stadium. Show what has done in Australia when, Australian crowd asked to show passports to Indians?

I think this has been lost in translation. What exactly are you talking about? I was at the MCG on Boxing Day in a VERY mixed crowd, and everyone was having a good time.

No doubt about that. I had lot of respect towards Australian team. But this series ruined all that.

And I had respect for the Indian team. I thought they were men, not sulking children.

I know all Australian past and present glory.
Sir, lets limit the discussion to current series.

Everyone else here seems determined to drag in whatever past events suit their case (including you). Why do I not get that right?

Forget bad umpiring, look at the way, Ricky Ponting was appealing, when batsmen was not out. (Rahul Dravid, Ganguly). Symmonds admitted he nicked the ball, what prevented him from walking out. Same case with Ponting, he was waiting for umpire decision. Just re-wind the Sydney test and come back and argue why Indians are wrong?

And Indians only appeal when they are certain it is out? Spare me.

Australians appeal more than other teams because they have better bowlers who create more chances. We like to put batsmen under pressure & we are good enough at bowling to do it. If India is not, why should we be punished?

As for Symonds (or any other batsmen) why should they walk. This test provided many examples of just how many errors umpires can make. As Symonds himself said, he has been given out at times when he knew he wasn't. Most batsmen have been. Why should they walk? Symonds was within his rights to wait for a decision, as was Ganguly in the 2nd innings. You walk when the umpire gives you out.

Just imagine if all those 8 decisions went against Australia, what would have been the outcome of that?

[/quote]

Two points. First, Australia would have grumbled to a few journalists & got on with the series. We would not have demanded a new umpire or threatened to go home.

Second, you are once again showing you bias. I hear team manager Chauhan talk about ALL the decisions going against India. Excuse me? I can think of two blatantly bad decisions that went against us, and then there were the usual collection of solid LBW shouts we didn't get (we do get some, which are usually included in the 'bad decisions' category by the opposition).

If India wants to become the best nation in the world, here are a few tips:

*Throw all the politicians out of administration
*play less 1 day cricket
*Stop sulking like spoiled children
*Find 2 opening batsmen, a no. 6, a better keeper & some consistent bowlers (Dravid looks deeply unhappy, Jaffer is a joke, Yuvraj needs to remember how to bat, Dhoni is average & Kumble won't last forever).
*learn to run between wickets
*learn to chase the ball in the field
*learn to catch
*learn to take responsibility for winning rather than finding excuses for losing.

[devgupt]

Originally Posted by Bigfella

[




Two points. First, Australia would have grumbled to a few journalists & got on with the series. We would not have demanded a new umpire or threatened to go home.

Second, you are once again showing you bias. I hear team manager Chauhan talk about ALL the decisions going against India. Excuse me? I can think of two blatantly bad decisions that went against us, and then there were the usual collection of solid LBW shouts we didn't get (we do get some, which are usually included in the 'bad decisions' category by the opposition).

If India wants to become the best nation in the world, here are a few tips:

*Throw all the politicians out of administration
*play less 1 day cricket
*Stop sulking like spoiled children
*Find 2 opening batsmen, a no. 6, a better keeper & some consistent bowlers (Dravid looks deeply unhappy, Jaffer is a joke, Yuvraj needs to remember how to bat, Dhoni is average & Kumble won't last forever).
*learn to run between wickets
*learn to chase the ball in the field
*learn to catch
*learn to take responsibility for winning rather than finding excuses for losing.

Don't deviate from the topic my friend. the topic is not about the playing skills of players, it is about the spirit of the game and sadly Ricky Ponting's men have murdered it in full public view.Regarding - no weightage is given to the batsman's testimony who was batting with him-Tendulkar, but to people who were standing far away.The Bhajji operation - It is something which would make even ex-KGB jealous

[devgupt]

Bigfella have you gone through Rashid Latif's link Can you please explain how Ricky ponting's case is different from him? I am all ears

[Bigfella]

bigfella,

The well-known cricket columnist Peter Roebuck demanded that Pointing be sacked as captain....you must think even he is deluded.

- Lemontree

Yes. Peter Roebuck is indeed well know - for violently beating young boys in his care. A hack who couldn't even find a spot in a 3rd rate England team.

Yes, I take him VERY seriously

BBC News | ENGLAND | Cricketer sentenced for caning trainees

[Bigfella]

Devgupt,

It is hard enough to keep up with a flood of self-righteous & deluded comments, let alone when they are put in multiple posts.

I'm glad you brought up Darren Lehman, as it is a classic example of the sort of double standard I am talking about.

His comments were not made on the field & were not directed at anyone specifically. He immediately apologised & accepted his punishment like a man. He did not deny or pretend he didn't say it. Australians did not claim some 'KGB-like' conspiracy. The ACB did not throw a tantrum. In fact, they made him go to counselling to make sure he understood why what he had done was wrong.

Personally I think he got off lightly, but that was up to the officials. Other than that it sounds like a good example of Australia taking the issue seriously. Pity India can't grow up & do the same.

As for my comments on skill, that is very much what this is about. India is losing & they don't like it. Instrad of getting on with the game they are making excuses for their own failings. It is the loser's way.

And Latif, how on earth am I supposed to comment on something I haven't even seen? According to the description he dropped the ball & regathered it. When did this happen during the Sydney test?

In Melbourne Ponting refused to claim a catch he felt had not carried. There are numerous examples of Australians having done this over the past decade, often in situations where they could have claimed the catch & no one would have been the wiser. In 1987 the career of Australian keeper Greg Dyer ended when he claimed a catch that he clearly knew had not carried. If you think you have a point here I can assure you there isn't one.

One thing strikes me, however. Mike Proctor was the match referee then as he is now. There have been clear implacations in the comments of many posters here that Proctor is biased in his ruling in Sydney. If so, why would you use one of his judgements as an example? If he was biased against Harbhajan, why not Latif? This is the problem, you see, when logic is abandoned in favour of fevered conspiracy theories.

As I said before, a bunch of whining hypocrites. When Australia sledges it is a threat to the game, when India does it it is 'schoolboyish'. When an Indian gets a bad decision it is a conspiracy, when an Aussie gets one it didn't even happen.

And just in case you feel I am picking on India, I'm not. Sth Africa are even worse. it took us beating them 6-0 for them to stop complaining about umpiring, sledging etc. (though they sledge as much as us). They too are losers, and will remain so while ever they keep making excuses for not being good enough.

[dave lukins]

I see the Tour is to continue...Thoughts please


PS. It has been reported that Brian Hogg has been charged with making offensive remarks to Kumble and Mehendre Singh Dhoni

[Cactus]

Originally Posted by sun

I am curious to know how can, calling monkey be viewed as racism?

Context.

Originally Posted by sun

From my childhood, I have seen people calling each other monkey, donkey etc. But I never thought it is a racial abuse!!!

In India you would have also seen people negatively characterizing others as dimwitted with the epithet "owl" or "son-of-an-owl"... try that on a person far removed from Indian or nearby cultures and all you will receive a confused look. Owl, in many cultures, is symbolic of great widom and intelligence. Key Idea: Context.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

To the question of the thread, yes, the term 'monkey' is deeply offensive to people of African & East Asian origin. It is a term that has been used over centuries to suggest that they are closely related to apes - that they are subhuman. Hitler famously referred to the Japanese as 'painted monkeys'. In Europe, racist elements in the crowd at football games have taunted black players by throwing bananas on the pitch. I can't think of an equivalent term with which to degrade Indians, but if I ever heard someone use one I would be the first in line to *****slap the racist piece of ****.

It is equally degrading to Indians and Europeans when thrown in the right context. WRT Indians see the recent Maccaca Controversy. Racial epithets aimed at Europeans in East Asia often take form on monkeys and other primates.

[Tronic]

Originally Posted by devgupt

Just go through this link and answer why same treatment should not be meted out to your captain of high integrity

Because hes Australian and not a Pakistani. Pakistani captain does it, he gets a 5 match ban; Australian captain does it, all is fair? Cricket's roots have been stemmed in racism, that is why it is time to bring in technology big time into this game, it is simply ridiculous when the umpires can single handedly determine the outcome of the game. And the job falls entirely upon the BCCI on whose shoulder's international cricket even runs on. A shame to see that a country which gives more then 70% of ICC's budget, still gets cheated out of matches. We might aswell pull out of international cricket and just watch how fast the game sinks from the international arena.

[Tronic]

Originally Posted by dave lukins

I see the Tour is to continue...Thoughts please

In my opinion, it really shouldn't, until this whole racism fiasco has been cleared, as I don't think it is any small deal which can be "dealt with later". It is a very very serious allegation which can taint a person for his entire life. I honestly think that players on both sides should go through some sort of lie detector tests and those should then be made public, to simply get to the bottom of this.

PS. It has been reported that Brian Hogg has been charged with making offensive remarks to Kumble and Mehendre Singh Dhoni

Preliminary hearing on the 14th, still to see if he is found guilty and banned. And also, it would be interesting to see the evidence on which he has been banned under. Then compare the evidence they have against both players.

[Tronic]

Originally Posted by Bigfella

I'm glad you brought up Darren Lehman, as it is a classic example of the sort of double standard I am talking about.

Bigfella, so banning the Pakistani captain for doing something, and then letting the same actions conducted by the Australian captain pass by, is not double standards? It is easy to call others delusional, maybe you should think about that before doing so.

His comments were not made on the field & were not directed at anyone specifically. He immediately apologised & accepted his punishment like a man. He did not deny or pretend he didn't say it. Australians did not claim some 'KGB-like' conspiracy. The ACB did not throw a tantrum. In fact, they made him go to counselling to make sure he understood why what he had done was wrong.

Because he was GUILTY of making those comments. Bhajji is NOT. I don't think Bhajji would even bother lying had he made those comments as he and everyone in the cricketing world knows that there are microphones placed inside the pitch, and that they are even being recorded by cameras all over the stadium. There is absolutely no evidence against Bhajji. Now tomorrow, if an Indian player says that Ponting made racist comments against him, yet there is absolutely nil evidence that he did, you would still brand Ponting a racist and ban him? I don't think so, I am sure your reaction would be very different.

Personally I think he got off lightly, but that was up to the officials. Other than that it sounds like a good example of Australia taking the issue seriously. Pity India can't grow up & do the same.

Lets not get over our heads here, Bhajji's case is still not over.

As for my comments on skill, that is very much what this is about. India is losing & they don't like it. Instrad of getting on with the game they are making excuses for their own failings. It is the loser's way.

There is a good reason Bucknor sits out. Had the game been on skill, India had won this match fair and square; but it wasn't on skill, the game was run by the umpires, who ensured that Indian batsmen (Dravid and Ganguly) got out on pad knicks and grounded bump catches meanwhile Aussie batsmen kept on playing despite knicking the ball and placing lbws.

In Melbourne Ponting refused to claim a catch he felt had not carried. There are numerous examples of Australians having done this over the past decade, often in situations where they could have claimed the catch & no one would have been the wiser. In 1987 the career of Australian keeper Greg Dyer ended when he claimed a catch that he clearly knew had not carried. If you think you have a point here I can assure you there isn't one.

Not when it is about to reject them a record. And you seem to be of the thought that Aussies are the only players who have done this. Get real.

And besides, what does this say about the long integrity of your team?
YouTube - Ian Healy Cheating

Or the way New Zealand was cheated at the world cup: YouTube - Infamous Underarm Ball

One thing strikes me, however. Mike Proctor was the match referee then as he is now. There have been clear implacations in the comments of many posters here that Proctor is biased in his ruling in Sydney. If so, why would you use one of his judgements as an example? If he was biased against Harbhajan, why not Latif? This is the problem, you see, when logic is abandoned in favour of fevered conspiracy theories.

Well, maybe because there was concrete evidence, like tv replays and the likes, which clearly showed him doing what he did. However, I think the ICC is biased here for not taking the same action against Ponting as he did the same thing as Latif... still a conspiracy theory?

As I said before, a bunch of whining hypocrites. When Australia sledges it is a threat to the game, when India does it it is 'schoolboyish'. When an Indian gets a bad decision it is a conspiracy, when an Aussie gets one it didn't even happen.

You are the only one who seems to be whining here genious. Whining that a man's word is more then enough then the need for evidence; I wouldn't be surprised to hear you singing another tone had an Aussie cricketer been in Bhajji's shoes.

And just in case you feel I am picking on India, I'm not. Sth Africa are even worse. it took us beating them 6-0 for them to stop complaining about umpiring, sledging etc. (though they sledge as much as us). They too are losers, and will remain so while ever they keep making excuses for not being good enough.

Aussies are good, but not THAT good. Throw out the umpires, and bring in technology to make the decisions in the game, and the face of cricket becomes much different and much more fair.