Is calling "Monkey" is racism?

[tankie]

Originally Posted by Amarnath

You know maybe Bhajji said "Maakee" and Symonds thought that Bhajji was calling him "Monkey"

Well seems to me he was slow on the uptake , he could have retorted and called Bhajji by his 1st name ,,,,,,,, ONION

[bolo121]

Best thing to do now is dump the series.
Bitterness between both sides is too high and the third match if it goes ahead will be full of incidents.

[sun]

Originally Posted by bolo121

Best thing to do now is dump the series.
Bitterness between both sides is too high and the third match if it goes ahead will be full of incidents.

It is not as easy to dump the series. It will cost BCCI US $2m + damage control to CA.
Politicians also in the picture. Sharad Pawar is candidate for ICC chief for next term. So he may not want to hamper his candidacy by calling off the tour.
My guess is, the trial against Bhajji will postpone post series(so that he can play in the series) and Steve Buckner would be sent back home.

My personal opinion is team India should pack their bags and return. But looking at past history of BCCI, I seriously doubt anything happens

[Ray]

Since nothing is was heard by the umpires or the microphones, is it a neat way of the Australians calling Symonds monkey by proxy?

As far as this test match is concerned, wherein the umpiring was horrid, sledging (synonymous to Australians) the worst, Ponting, the pious liar, seen by the TV claiming for a grounded catch that he took and then acting holier than thou, and various other issues made it the worst in cricketing history.

Bishen Bedi wanting that India should forgive and get on with the game is fine, but then the Australians have never forgiven. Their Prime Minister also mucked in by calling the Sri Lankan spin wizard as a chukker.

As the village Indian english would go, tit for the tat!

You can forgive normal humans, but you can't forgive crass and crude Australian cricketers, who would not stoop to anything to win!

The English are equally competitive, so are the West Indians and Pakistanis, but the Australian cricketers are the worst to play this gentleman's game. They are better off playing some cricket in some slum.

At the same time, Australians, crass that they are by habit, are not really bad chaps. There are some wonderful Australians who are gentlemen to the core and I have the honour to have the acquaintance of some.

[Srirangan]

Originally Posted by sun

It is not as easy to dump the series. It will cost BCCI US $2m + damage control to CA.
Politicians also in the picture. Sharad Pawar is candidate for ICC chief for next term. So he may not want to hamper his candidacy by calling off the tour.
My guess is, the trial against Bhajji will postpone post series(so that he can play in the series) and Steve Buckner would be sent back home.

It is sometimes very painful to watch the rest of the world run circles around the gullible Indians as they squirm and squeak and try to maintain a stiff upper lip as indignity upon indignity is being heaped upon them at every turn. Such as the case during the second test match in Australia. As Captain Steve Bucknor and his able British deputy led Australia to a much deserved 16th successive test victory. The Indians who once upon a time led the attempts to isolate the Apartheid regime of South Africa now stand accused of “racism ” by a bunch of white men with a reputation of being the worst foul mouths in the sporting world.

In the midst of all this one wonders whether the Indian establishment will ever tire of turning the other cheek and learn to take the fight right into the opponent’s camp?

Perhaps one good place to learn from is from the “champion” side themselves. The way they close ranks is amazing. Not even one Aussie has broken ranks in even one single instance whether they knew it was right or wrong, whether it is the bhajji issue or Clarke’s catch of Ganguly where he clearly grounded it. Every Aussie whether player, TV commentator, ex-player, journalist or spectator is speaking from the same playbook. While in the case of Indians every one wants to play his or her own tune. This tendency to kneejerk moralism among Indians at large is another weakness that many a times works against their own interests.

In this case the Indians brought it upon themselves. The entire cricketing industry today runs because of the Indian market. The BCCI instead of using this market muscle power to bludgeon their opponents into submission has chosen instead to meekly appeal to the very instruments of power used by the White countries(read Australia and UK) to maintain their own position at the helm. And no prizes for guessing what the end result will be in either cases on the table now. Bhajji will be reprimanded perhaps even docked some match fees or handed suspension for a couple of matches while the umpires will be coolly let off to return another day to torment team India while the sheepish Indians will continue to maintain a long face and walk away with their tail between their legs.

By unfortunately neglecting the political aspect of the game the BCCI has unwittingly made sure that Indian cricket in the long run will go the way of Hockey where the White countries simply changed the rules to suit themselves and undid Indian dominance which they had repeatedly failed to do on the field of play.

In a way this is symptomatic of the way India approaches its foreign relations, trying to belong to institutions and abide by the rules of a world order shaped by other powers to suit their own agendas and hoping that its “good behaviour” will be recognised and rewarded rather than like China which threatens to undermine it unless it is satisfactorily accommodated in the global power structure. And no prizes for guessing who is getting the better bargain.

And on a lighter note the laughably pathetic Brits who are on the verge of irrelevance on the global stage on every indicator of sporting power including the no of Olympic medals won, or even the scale of their losses in cricket and football to every team, champion or middling, that they play against are trying to puff up their chests and pat themselves on the back at Australia’s “victory” against India.

And the fact that 10 of the current sequence of 16 wins have come against England and South Africa, past and present holders of the second-ranked position in the world ratings, tells you everything about the strength of their current “challengers”[link].

The reason why the Brits are gloating- they lost the recent Ashes 5-0. truly English cricket is now well and truly dead.This added to their glorious defeat to Croatia in the Euro cup qualifiers has rounded off a very successful 2007 for them.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by gunnut

It's racism if the caller is white.

The late, great Chick Hearn, long time voice of the LA Lakers once accidentally called a play using the word "monkey" and pissed off a bunch of busybodies.

The play went something like this. An opposing player took the ball and dunked on the Lakers. After dunking the ball, for whatever the reason, he decided to hang on the rim for a few seconds. He was swinging with his legs bent under him. Chick remarked "whoa he's hanging there like a monkey."

That did it! A bunch of people said he made a racial remark and was insensitive to a black player (naturally) and blah blah blah.

Was it mean? No. Was it meant to demean the player? No. Would this have been an issue had the player been white? No. Would this have been an issue had Chick been black? No.

He was merely calling a play and described the action of the player the best he could in order to paint a picture for the radio listeners.

Some people are hypersensitive these days. They have a victim's mentality. They blame everything on "the man" in order to excuse themselves from working hard.

If you can do your job and do it well, no one cares what your skin color is.

There is nothing usual or extraordinarily unfair that most of the racist attributes stick to the whites.

For centuries, the non whites have been subjected to the racial abuse and now that the non whites are equal, these slurs stick and the white having had the licence to have racially abused with impunity over the centuries is taking its toll. The sensitivity of the non white to the racial arrogance of the past makes their skin extra thin! It is a different matter if they should be that sensitive.

That apart, it is incorrect of black, brown, white, yellow ochre, green or whatever be your colour, to use racially derogatory terms.

[Bigfella]

what a bunch of whiners & hypocrites!

Can you imagine the reaction if an Australian player had been accused of hurling a racial epithet during a tour of India? The Aussies would need armed security just to leave the ground, and all the people here who are so intent on defending Harbhajan would be screaming 'racist'.

To the question of the thread, yes, the term 'monkey' is deeply offensive to people of African & East Asian origin. It is a term that has been used over centuries to suggest that they are closely related to apes - that they are subhuman. Hitler famously referred to the Japanese as 'painted monkeys'. In Europe, racist elements in the crowd at football games have taunted black players by throwing bananas on the pitch. I can't think of an equivalent term with which to degrade Indians, but if I ever heard someone use one I would be the first in line to *****slap the racist piece of ****.

Whatever the motivations of the Indian crowds (and I don't believe they were innocent), Harbhajan has no excuse. Before the series it was made clear to the Indian team that the term was deeply offensive to Symonds. The conspiracy theories surrounding this are just so much BS. It was clear from the reaction on the field that Symonds was angered & offended by what he heard. The ICC has recently instructed captains to report sledging of this type. Ponting was doing as instructed.

The hearing lasted 8 hours, so Mike Proctor clearly heard EVERY possible piece of evidence & took the time to weigh them up. No doubt this is proof that Proctor is a racist too. Hell, why not throw Bucknor into he mix. Perhaps he is a KKK member on the sly. Or maybe, just maybe, an Indian player with a long history of hotheaded behaviour did something stupid. Nah. Couldn't be.

As to the 'Australians are racist' crap, it is no more than I would expect. South Asian teams have a long & dishonourable history of crying 'racism' whenever they don't like a decision or a result. There is no doubt that white teams in past eras have been responsible for racism. They have cleaned up their act. Using the accusation every time you don't like a result is not only insulting to those wrongly accused, it is also insulting to all those who have genuinely suffered racial abuse.

I should also point out that after the behaviour of the Indian crowds this year & elements in the Australian crowd during the Sth African tour, police at Australian grounds were instructed to throw out anyone heard uttering racist abuse. Plainclothes officers were even stationed in the crowd for just this purpose. How many of those holding racist signs in India were thrown out? How many of those making racist gestures or hurling racist abuse in India were thrown out? Yeah, its the Australians who are racist.

In the past Australian teams touring the subcontinent used to complain about everything - the food, the weather, the crowds & the umpiring. We arrived in the country with all our excuses for losing ready to go. We had lost before we even arrived. Then about 20 years ago, we stopped making excuses. We started to engage with the locals. We stopped blaming the umpires. We started winning.

In the past 15 years Australia has beaten every team in the world in series at home and away. We have set records. We have won a string of World Cups. We are the best in the world. Why? because we have set up systems at every level that promote talent & excellence. We also focus on the basics (cricketers who fielded & ran between wickets as consistently badly as many Indian players rarely make it beyond grade level here). Most of all, our national team focusses on what IT does. No excuses. No cop outs.

Oh, as an aside, Australia lost the 'ashes' in England in 2005. It was a close & hard fought series in which a number of questionable umpiring decisions against Australia might well have been the difference between the two sides. or that would be how the story would be told if the result had been reversed. Did the Australians threaten to go home? did they throw a tantrum & demand a change of umpire? did they resort to racist abuse? No, they congratulated England on being the better team & went away determined to do better next time. In the return series last year we won 4-0.

Winners are grinners. Losers can please themselves.

[lemontree]

Thats a rather lame duck defence for the Australian Captain, and Bucknor....

See below for new rules for playing in Australia...

Ricky Ponting – (THE TRULY GENUINE CRICKETER OF THE CRICKET ERA AND WHOSE INTEGRITY SHOULD NOT BE DOUBTED ) should be considered as the FOURTH UMPIRE. As per the new rules, FOURTH UMPIRE decision is final and will over ride any decisions taken by any other umpires. ON-FIELD umpires can seek the assistance of RICKY PONTING even if he is not on the field. This rule is to be made, so that every team should understand the importance of the FOURTH UMPIRE.


(2) While AUSTRALIAN TEAM is bowling, If the ball flies anywhere close to the AUSTRALIAN FIELDER (WITHIN 5 meter distance) , the batsman is to be considered OUT irrelevant of whether the catch was taken cleanly or grassed. Any decision for further clarification should be seeked from the FOURTH UMPIRE. This is made to ensure that the cricket is played with SPORTIVE SPIRIT by all the teams.


(3) While BATTING, AUSTRALIAN players will wait for the ON-FIELD UMPIRE decisions only (even if the catch goes to the FIFTH SLIP as the ball might not have touched the bat). Each AUSTRALIAN batsman has to be out FOUR TIMES (minimum) before he can return to the pavilion. In case of THE CRICKETER WITH INTEGRITY , this can be higher.


(4) UMPIRES should consider a huge bonus if an AUSTRALIAN player scores a century. Any wrong decisions can be ignored as they will be paid huge bonus and will receive the backing of the AUSTRALIAN team and board.


(5) All AUSTRALIAN players are eligible to keep commenting about all players on the field and the OPPONENT TEAM should never comment as they will be spoiling the spirit of the AUSTRALIAN team. Any comments made in any other language are to be considered as RACIALISM only.


(6) MATCH REFREE decisions will be taken purely on the AUSTRALIAN TEAM advices only. Player views from the other teams decisions will not be considered for hearing. MATCH REFREES are to be given huge bonus if this rule is implemented.


(7) NO VISITING TEAM should plan to win in AUSTRALIA . This is to ensure that the sportive spirit of CRICKET is maintained.


(8) THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE: If any bowler gets RICKY PONTING - "THE UNDISPUTED CRICKETER WITH INTEGTIRY IN THE GAME OF CRICKET" more than twice in a series, he will be banned for the REST OF THE SERIES. This is to ensure that the best batsman/Captain will be played to break records and create history in the game of CRICKET.

A rather disgraceful show of ethics put up by Pointing and his mates....including the umpires.

[Srirangan]

Originally Posted by Bigfella

what a bunch of whiners & hypocrites!

Can you imagine the reaction if an Australian player had been accused of hurling a racial epithet during a tour of India? The Aussies would need armed security just to leave the ground, and all the people here who are so intent on defending Harbhajan would be screaming 'racist'.

To the question of the thread, yes, the term 'monkey' is deeply offensive to people of African & East Asian origin. It is a term that has been used over centuries to suggest that they are closely related to apes - that they are subhuman. Hitler famously referred to the Japanese as 'painted monkeys'. In Europe, racist elements in the crowd at football games have taunted black players by throwing bananas on the pitch. I can't think of an equivalent term with which to degrade Indians, but if I ever heard someone use one I would be the first in line to *****slap the racist piece of ****.

What rubbish. Where were you when Glen Mcgrath repeatedly called Sanath Jayasuriya a "black monkey"? Where was Symonds? Where was the Match Referee?

The Aussie Cricket team has been for decades bad mouthing other teams players, especially non-white players. And the things your cricketers have said are far worse than the school boyish "monkey" comments.

If anybody has been hypocritical, it has been the Aussie players because they are the pioneers of sledging on the cricket field. And they do it at a far more dirty level.

[sun]

Originally Posted by Bigfella

To the question of the thread, yes, the term 'monkey' is deeply offensive to people of African & East Asian origin. It is a term that has been used over centuries to suggest that they are closely related to apes - that they are subhuman. Hitler famously referred to the Japanese as 'painted monkeys'. In Europe, racist elements in the crowd at football games have taunted black players by throwing bananas on the pitch. I can't think of an equivalent term with which to degrade Indians, but if I ever heard someone use one I would be the first in line to *****slap the racist piece of ****.

Thanks for the explanation. There should be NO excuse for racism.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Whatever the motivations of the Indian crowds (and I don't believe they were innocent),

Nobody claimed Indian spectator is innocent. Culprits were immediately removed from stadium in Mumbai.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

Harbhajan has no excuse. Before the series it was made clear to the Indian team that the term was deeply offensive to Symonds. The conspiracy theories surrounding this are just so much BS. It was clear from the reaction on the field that Symonds was angered & offended by what he heard. The ICC has recently instructed captains to report sledging of this type. Ponting was doing as instructed.

Prove that Harbhajan uttered those words in the ground. Umpires didn't heard it, Microphones didn't capture it. Procter has issued the ban on Harbhajan on the admission of ‘Aussies’ Matthew Hayden and Michael Clarke, both of whom were standing in the slip region and quite far from the action, that Harbhajan uttered ‘monkey’ word. Sachin Tendulkar was standing right next to Bhajji.

Originally Posted by Bigfella

As to the 'Australians are racist' crap, it is no more than I would expect. South Asian teams have a long & dishonourable history of crying 'racism' whenever they don't like a decision or a result. There is no doubt that white teams in past eras have been responsible for racism. They have cleaned up their act. Using the accusation every time you don't like a result is not only insulting to those wrongly accused, it is also insulting to all those who have genuinely suffered racial abuse.

Can you please elaborate on this, we can go ahead on discussing specific issues. Remember, Australians were known for sledging in the field. They may not have made racist comment, but the word b*****d carries lot of weightage in India.
I can give you numerous examples, when sub-continental players were fined heavily for minor misbehaviors, but others let go off.
Forget past, in the current series, When Yuvraj made delay in leaving the crease, there was heavy pressure on match refree to fine him. But when Ricky did the samething, I have not seen a single line in media, that anyone urging to fine him

Originally Posted by Bigfella

I should also point out that after the behaviour of the Indian crowds this year & elements in the Australian crowd during the Sth African tour, police at Australian grounds were instructed to throw out anyone heard uttering racist abuse. Plainclothes officers were even stationed in the crowd for just this purpose. How many of those holding racist signs in India were thrown out? How many of those making racist gestures or hurling racist abuse in India were thrown out? Yeah, its the Australians who are racist.

In Mumbai, the person who was making monkey gesture was thrown out of stadium. Show what has done in Australia when, Australian crowd asked to show passports to Indians?

Originally Posted by Bigfella

In the past 15 years Australia has beaten every team in the world in series at home and away. We have set records. We have won a string of World Cups. We are the best in the world. Why? because we have set up systems at every level that promote talent & excellence. We also focus on the basics (cricketers who fielded & ran between wickets as consistently badly as many Indian players rarely make it beyond grade level here). Most of all, our national team focusses on what IT does. No excuses. No cop outs.

No doubt about that. I had lot of respect towards Australian team. But this series ruined all that.

I know all Australian past and present glory.
Sir, lets limit the discussion to current series.

Forget bad umpiring, look at the way, Ricky Ponting was appealing, when batsmen was not out. (Rahul Dravid, Ganguly). Symmonds admitted he nicked the ball, what prevented him from walking out. Same case with Ponting, he was waiting for umpire decision. Just re-wind the Sydney test and come back and argue why Indians are wrong?

Just imagine if all those 8 decisions went against Australia, what would have been the outcome of that?

[Mobbme]

I think your title is racist to WAB

"Is calling "Monkey" is racism?"

[Blademaster]

BigFella, get over your high horse. What we are taking issue is that the Aussies are getting away with their shameful sledging is akin to the very same alleged racial comment made by Bhajji. This is a classic case of the Aussies having the cake and eating it.

[Bigfella]

I am going to be rapidly outnumbered on this thread, so I'm going to respond as best I can & then leave you all to wallow in your own delusions.

[dave lukins]

Originally Posted by bolo121

I think it was a deliberate plan by ponting and co.
They know that Bhajji is a hot tempered Sardar and that if you push him he wont think but will lash out straight away.
All that the australians need to do then is claim he used the word monkey and bye bye Bhajji for the rest of the series.

I find it interesting that Bhajji, who is known to react straight away, and is a tad hot tempered, had the presence of mind to use English in his retort.(alleged). It seems to me that you would use, by sheer human instinct, the mother tongue. Have the Aussies been brushing up on their language skills?

Sadly the Sport of Gentlemen has passed into the History books.

[Bigfella]

[quote=Srirangan;445981]

What rubbish. Where were you when Glen Mcgrath repeatedly called Sanath Jayasuriya a "black monkey"? Where was Symonds? Where was the Match Referee?

I was obviously out of earshot, as I was unaware until now of the allegation. I'm betting Symonds wasn't in the team, and the Match Referee was awaiting a report that was clearly never made.

A question, however. I have lost count of the number of Indian apologists who are rushing to tell me that 'monkey' is not offensive. If so, then why should Jayasuria have been insulted. Accoring to your justification McGrath was just having fun (assuming he actually did what you claim).

The Aussie Cricket team has been for decades bad mouthing other teams players, especially non-white players. And the things your cricketers have said are far worse than the school boyish "monkey" comments.

I am well aware of our poor record on sledging, though your claims that it was particularly directed against 'non-white players' awaits proof I doubt you can provide. I am also aware that other teams have engaged in particularly strong sledging, often while complaining about us. For some time now there has been a crackdown on sledging. As far as I am aware Australia has been abiding by the rules as they are now enforced - the umpires can charge us if we don't.

I am also not surprised by your application of the classic double standard. Our sledging is a threat to the game, your racial epithets are 'schoolboyish'. You seem to be judging the statement by which team makes it. Sounds dangerously like racism to me.

If anybody has been hypocritical, it has been the Aussie players because they are the pioneers of sledging on the cricket field. And they do it at a far more dirty level.

So India takes the high moral ground by calling one of our players subhuman? yeah, that'll show us.