what car do you own?

[bonehead]

last year Toyota has surpassed Ford Motor Co. and took the 2nd. place in all over the world.

what was the echos in US about this?

From the consumer side the thoughts are, "When you build second rate vehicles, you don't deserve to be at the top." Unfortunately, it is the working stiffs who are getting the short end of the stick with massive layoffs while the upper management, who are the very people to blame for the POS that comes off the assembly line, gets a big pay raise.

[FibrillatorD]

From the consumer side the thoughts are, "When you build second rate vehicles, you don't deserve to be at the top." Unfortunately, it is the working stiffs who are getting the short end of the stick with massive layoffs while the upper management, who are the very people to blame for the POS that comes off the assembly line, gets a big pay raise.

Yeah, its really too bad.

It could be interesting to see what happens as car dealership get bigger and better at shoving their suppliers around. Maybe Chrysler could get back into the game if the new leadership falls in line with the demands of street-level salesmen, instead of pushing the usual over-accessorized and under-performing impracticars.

[Shamus]

Yeah, its really too bad.

It could be interesting to see what happens as car dealership get bigger and better at shoving their suppliers around. Maybe Chrysler could get back into the game if the new leadership falls in line with the demands of street-level salesmen, instead of pushing the usual over-accessorized and under-performing impracticars.

Amen to that

[bonehead]

All I want is a low maintainance, safe, reliable vehicle that gets decent gas milage, and is fairly price. A bit of customer service is icing on the cake. The leadership at Ford and Chevrolet just do not have a clue what the customer wants and that is why they are stumbling.

[JAD_333]

All I want is a low maintainance, safe, reliable vehicle that gets decent gas milage, and is fairly price. A bit of customer service is icing on the cake. The leadership at Ford and Chevrolet just do not have a clue what the customer wants and that is why they are stumbling.

It's been a long time since GM and Ford realized they were being outclassed by Japanese automakers. They've closed a good part of the gap.

The problem facing the leadership is not how to satisfy you, but how to fund medical and retirement benefits that are the highest of any auto makers in the world.

When they were on top of the heap, they could afford to cut lucrative union contracts to avoid strikes and pass the cost on to the consumer. The newcomers aren't saddled with those union deals and can easily give you more value for the price.

No question GM and Ford were once fat at the top and complacent. The new leadership is more in tune, but they still have union contracts hanging like an albatros around their neck. They're hemorraging money. Hence the plant closings, buyouts and layoffs.

[bonehead]

It's been a long time since GM and Ford realized they were being outclassed by Japanese automakers. They've closed a good part of the gap.

The problem facing the leadership is not how to satisfy you, but how to fund medical and retirement benefits that are the highest of any auto makers in the world.

When they were on top of the heap, they could afford to cut lucrative union contracts to avoid strikes and pass the cost on to the consumer. The newcomers aren't saddled with those union deals and can easily give you more value for the price.

No question GM and Ford were once fat at the top and complacent. The new leadership is more in tune, but they still have union contracts hanging like an albatros around their neck. They're hemorraging money. Hence the plant closings, buyouts and layoffs.

If they had not been producing lines of POS and took care of their customers for the last 20 years, GM and Ford would still be at the top,and in the money, as they would be selling enough cars so they can pay for the union contracts. Even today, they don't bat an eye paying obscene amounts of money to the top brass.

The high healthcare cost are not the fault of the unions. The blame lays squarely on the healthcare industry, the pharmacutical industry and the FDA which refuses to keep things of the market that makes us sicker. We can all choose healthier lifestyles too.

[JAD_333]

If they had not been producing lines of POS and took care of their customers for the last 20 years, GM and Ford would still be at the top,and in the money, as they would be selling enough cars so they can pay for the union contracts. Even today, they don't bat an eye paying obscene amounts of money to the top brass.

The high healthcare cost are not the fault of the unions. The blame lays squarely on the healthcare industry, the pharmacutical industry and the FDA which refuses to keep things of the market that makes us sicker. We can all choose healthier lifestyles too.

How long are we going to moan over what the big 3, now the big 2 did in the 1970s? I totally agree with you that they missed the boat entirely when they thought they could compete in the economy car sector by building low frills, uncomfortable autos that would sell simply because they got good gas milage. The Japanese understood ergonomics and blew them away. That's history and Detroit learned. Now the problem is margins. Because they are saddled with workers benefits higher than foreign auto makers, the only way they can compete on price is to reduce margins, even sell at breakeven, which means delivering comparable quality is extremely difficult. Unles they can come out from under their higher labor cost, they'll go belly up. The high salaries they pay their execs is not the problem. It's a drop in the bucket compared to overall costs, and they need top execs to steer them back to profitability and product quality. Still, I don't think their products are so bad. I drive a Ford F-250 with diesel. I get 17+ miles per gallon average city/highway; it has 85k miles and has never broken down; it's as good a truck as Toyota's, maybe better. In any case, Ford & GM are in the process of leaning down to be able to survive. Harping on the past gets us nowhere. The Japanese still make the best car and run the most efficient factories. So now we'll see if Ford & GM can succeed in competing.

[bonehead]

Perhaps the question should be, "How long are you going to moan over the unions." Again, they are not responsible for the higher healthcare. The healthcare system in the U.S. needs a major overhaul. That would benefit the workers, and the companies who employ them.
Gm and Ford would be ok had they been able to keep their volume up. Customers got tired of being screwed so their you go. You don't have to go back to the 1970s. Those two companies only started their short sighted ways in the 1970's then carried them through to today. The mistakes these companies have made just in the last two decades is staggering and would have put most lesser companies out of business. Only in the last few years had quality gone up and even now it is spotty at best. What part of, "if you want to sell alot of vehicles, you must build a superior one that the customers like", do these exectutives not understand? You maintain customer loyalty not because you screw your customers, but because you treat them well. To reward gross incompetance at the top while laying off thousands of hourly workers, who by they way were the most loyal customers and played no part in the companies downfall, is ludicris. The people at the top needed to suffer as well, or the company will never turn around. Detriot has not learned its lesson well enough and things will not turn around unless they do some major changes from the top down. Blaming the unions is nothing but the short sighted aproach. Unions do play a hand, but they are far from being the only problem, or even the biggest problem. If you can't make the best cars and treat your customers well, you may as well turn out the lights and close up shop.

Untill last summer I had a Honda accord with 430,000 miles, and I still would be driving it if it was not so expensive to replace the clutch. How many Ford or Chevy cars in the same class have that many miles, are still on the road, and gets 35+ mpg?

I now have a Toyota camry with 210,000 miles and still looks and drives like a brand new car. 37mpg and running strong. Most domestics are belly up or look like junkers after 7-8 years or have 200,000 miles.

I had a 1972 ford 3/4 ton 360 that got 17 miles/gallon. 35 years later the milage has not increased much.

Do you have the tried and true 7.3 liter or the newer 6. something liter that keeps grenading?

[JAD_333]

Perhaps the question should be, "How long are you going to moan over the unions." Again, they are not responsible for the higher healthcare. The healthcare system in the U.S. needs a major overhaul.

Yes, I agree. But why did the higher cost of health care become more of a burden for Ford & GM. Because their union contracts call for a system that provides more of it than Honda USA and Tyota North America provide their workers. That's because the unions no longer dominated when Honda and Toyata opend up shop here. What they gave the unions were jobs. They could have stayed in Japan and stayed away from the unions. GM and Ford couldn't get out of their contacts. Now the cost is crippling them, and if you know anything about chapter 11 bankruptcy, when a corporation goes in, the court's sole responsibility is restructuring the company's finances even if it means scrapping union contracts. That is the next step for them if the unions don't level the playing field so it is equal for all automakers in the US.
So the unions will play ball. That and reorgnaization to the lean side is Ford and GM's only hope of remaining in the automobile manufacturing business.

The mistakes these companies have made just in the last two decades is staggering and would have put most lesser companies out of business. Only in the last few years had quality gone up and even now it is spotty at best. What part of, "if you want to sell alot of vehicles, you must build a superior one that the customers like", do these exectutives not understand? You maintain customer loyalty not because you screw your customers, but because you treat them well. To reward gross incompetance at the top while laying off thousands of hourly workers, who by they way were the most loyal customers and played no part in the companies downfall, is ludicris. The people at the top needed to suffer as well, or the company will never turn around. Detriot has not learned its lesson well enough and things will not turn around unless they do some major changes from the top down.

That's a pretty good summary of the situation. I also think it is changing for the better fairly quickly. Whether it will be in time remains to be seen.

Blaming the unions is nothing but the short sighted aproach. Unions do play a hand, but they are far from being the only problem, or even the biggest problem.

This isn't about blaming the unions. They did a hell of a job for their members at the apex of their power. This is about being realistic. Compliance with union contracts is bleeding Ford and GM dry. So are old, lingering inefficiencies and pockets of top heavy mgmt. But considering that the net earnings of an automaker are small in relation to their overall revenue, a company paying $5B a year for worker health care has a steep hill to climb to generate a profit. How does it compete with a Honda whose layouts for health care are far less percentagewise?

If you can't make the best cars and treat your customers well, you may as well turn out the lights and close up shop.

I agree, but it's too early to turn the cat out.

Untill last summer I had a Honda accord with 430,000 miles, and I still would be driving it if it was not so expensive to replace the clutch. How many Ford or Chevy cars in the same class have that many miles, are still on the road, and gets 35+ mpg?

I now have a Toyota camry with 210,000 miles and still looks and drives like a brand new car. 37mpg and running strong. Most domestics are belly up or look like junkers after 7-8 years or have 200,000 miles.

I had a 1972 ford 3/4 ton 360 that got 17 miles/gallon. 35 years later the milage has not increased much. Do you have the tried and true 7.3 liter or the newer 6. something liter that keeps grenading?

Those cars have great longivity. We bought a 1996 Acura with 180k miles on it and sold it with 300K. Then we got a Ford Taurus, a bucket of bolts which mercifully was crushed by an 18 wheeler. Now we have a Toyota Camry, arguably the best all around car ever produced to date.

My diesel is 6.0. What's grenading? It runs pretty good but you've got to carefully maintain the little things, expecially the fuel filters. I put an K&N air filter on it; it likes that. And now use synthetic oil (Amesoil). It has a lot of low end and can pull the steep hills we have around here easily.

[bonehead]

I still say taming the healthcare industry beast is the best long term solution to Ford and GM ills.Otherwise we will have the option of state run healthcare, or healthcare for the very rich. Neither is paletable for me. Unfortunately,today it is easier to renig on contracts than to take on the healthcare monster. As a union member I know all too well the lenths companies will go, including bankruptcy, to get out of a contract. On the other side of the fence, I believe the union also needs some accountability to make sure its members earn their total package.

I know of a few people who had their 6 liters or 6.4? explode, and destroyed everything inside the moter. They had to go through a lot of hassel to get their trucks fixed. One even offered to pay the difference to get the old 7.3 put in. Ford said "no deal." The newer Ford diesels don't seem to have the longevity of the 7.3 either. The power curve was an improvement over the old moter however. I am going to hold out untill I can get a Cummins in a F-250, before buying a truck.

I run Amsoil as well. It is great stuff even though many people think it is snake oil. Their loss.

[Elbmek]

I did own a Citroen Xsara 1800 Estate Exclusive but it was costing far too much to run to be economical so I followed my daughter and bought Suzuki. I now own a Suzuki Wagon R+ GL and the saving are astronomical. Whereas I used to fill the tank twice or three times a month at about £40 a go; its not £27 a tank full and its lasts about three weeks depending on mileage! Not too mention insurance is down, tax well down and running costs oceans less than 50% of the citroen!!

My car runs on Eco not Ego

[JAD_333]

I still say taming the healthcare industry beast is the best long term solution to Ford and GM ills.Otherwise we will have the option of state run healthcare, or healthcare for the very rich. Neither is paletable for me. Unfortunately,today it is easier to renig on contracts than to take on the healthcare monster. As a union member I know all too well the lenths companies will go, including bankruptcy, to get out of a contract. On the other side of the fence, I believe the union also needs some accountability to make sure its members earn their total package.

I agree that healthcare costs need to be brought under control. The issue isn't so much that as giving all the car companies a level playing field when it comes to worker health care costs. If one company's union deal makes them pay more than another company, the latter has an absolute advantage in the marketplace. Let's agree to disagree on this.

I know of a few people who had their 6 liters or 6.4? explode, and destroyed everything inside the moter. They had to go through a lot of hassel to get their trucks fixed. One even offered to pay the difference to get the old 7.3 put in. Ford said "no deal." The newer Ford diesels don't seem to have the longevity of the 7.3 either. The power curve was an improvement over the old moter however. I am going to hold out untill I can get a Cummins in a F-250, before buying a truck.

I had a 7.3 in my 1996 F-250 and it was a pretty good motor. Early on it showed up with a crack in the block (apparently due to a problem in casting at International). In any case Ford was very responsive in fixing it; they flew in an expert who went to the dealer's shop, and inserted some stainless steel pins in the afflicted area. Not sure exactly what he did. In any case, it ran like a champ until I sold it 6 years later and bought my 2003. I tried to get a 2003 with a 7.3, but the late year model only had 6.0. The feedback I get from other owners is all positive, aside from the usual stuff. I've never heard of one blowing up. My complaint with Ford is the annoying small stuff they softpedal, like the plastic overhead console lids are easily broken and replacements are not available unless you buy the whole console. Last year I was on a narrow road and another F250 was coming the other way and our side mirrors collided. I had to replace the lower mirror and discovered that it had a plastic ball hinge which had broken. Pretty cheap way to go. I fixed it with epoxy. It's that kind of things that irritates me about Ford. Otherwise it's a bear on the job site; tough and takes a hell of a beating.

What do you think of K&N filters? And by the way have you ever thought of reprogramming your computer. I did it and then found out that to go through Ford service I had to put it back to stock for them run diagnostics.

[JAD_333]

bonehead

The Cummins diesel would be a great addition to the F250. As you know Ford owns Cummins but Dodge has exclusive dibs on Cummins engines in light trucks. I wonder if the recent sale of Chrysler will change this arrangement. I'd go Cat if I could.

[JAD_333]

Why no discussion here on the steam driven car? I'll bet my boots that heated water will be the locomotive fuel of choice once they realize that electric and hydrogen generation won't cut it. Methanol is another loser long term.

[Gun Grape]

Yes, I agree. But why did the higher cost of health care become more of a burden for Ford & GM. Because their union contracts call for a system that provides more of it than Honda USA and Tyota North America provide their workers. That's because the unions no longer dominated when Honda and Toyata opend up shop here. What they gave the unions were jobs. They could have stayed in Japan and stayed away from the unions.

Healthcare cost are the fault of the Lawsuit crazy society that we live in.
Rein in the lawyers.

Toyota USA is non union. So is Honda. The health care bennies are comparable. The only difference is that the big 3 have to deal with older workers and their health problems , something that the foreign companies won't have to do for some time.

That is the next step for them if the unions don't level the playing field so it is equal for all automakers in the US.

What I hate about unions. One day they will relize that you don't need a "Level playing field". Its some BS socialist concept.

Toyotas cost more than Fords.
Toyotas outsell Fords.
Toyotas are better quality.
People will pay more money for a good product.

Maybe instead of trying to lower Toyota to the big 3 level, we could get the unions to get rid of some of those useless workers that they subsidise. Demand execelent work for the pay they recieve or fire them.

Yea, I "Look for that union label" when I shop. Its the crap I don't buy.



My vehicles (what the thread is about afterall)

Wife has a 2007 FJ Cruiser

I have a 2005 Land Cruiser

and a 1996 T-100 4x4 to take fishing.