gays.. good or bad?

[Ziska]

God is loving, but He is also just. If we deserve to be sent to hell, we will be.

When Adam fell (and the Bible consistently blames him for this, not Eve), all mankind fell with him. We are all guilty of Adam's sin. We are born sinners, meaning that our only hope is the Lord Jesus.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." - Psalm 51:5

God is all powerful. We are right to fear him, in the sense that He could crush us if He wanted. The only reason we are on this earth is to honour Him. It is good to fear the LORD.

"In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge." - Proverbs 14:26

That said, we do not live in fear as such. We do not live in terror, waiting for an angry God to punish us. God will do all things for our benefit, even if we don't always see it that way. Take the example of Job. He was a God-fearing man, yet God chose to afflict him with various things (the death of his children, the loss of his wealth etc). All of Job's friends told him God had forsaken him, and he might as well curse God and be done with it, but he didn't. He continued to praise God, and was rewarded for his faith.

God afflicted Paul with numerous beatings, physical afflictions, and doubt. But it was for Paul's own good. Look at it this way. If you touched a hot stove, and burned your hand, but felt no pain, you might continue to rest your hand there until it was fried beyond healing. But through pain, you learn what to do and what not to do.

Pain teaches us. The trick is to recognise it for what it is, a lesson from God.

Or for a more apt example, look at a rifle. Most of you guys would use them regularly. You are comfortable with them, you can use them well, and so on. But always in your minds is the reality that if you aren't careful, you could be hurt or killed. You fear the power of the rifle. You use it constantly, you might even make your liveing from it, but you never take it for granted. The same can apply to God. Jesus is my hope and confidence, and I feel comfortable discussing my deepest (and lightest) problems with Him. But I always remember that He is God, and he is in control of all things. I must respect that.

The Bible does not mention AIDS specifically, but surely it is obvious to you what I meant? If people did not practice promiscuous sex, the condition would not spread. If men were faithful to their wives, they would not get the disease, or spread it further.

The sad thing about AIDS is that most of the victims are 'innocent', being the wives of infected men or children who are either born with the condition or raped. However, that is still a product of sin, be it their sin or the sin of someone else. What people have to remember at all times is that we are all guilty of sin, and we all deserve to go to hell. Any trials or tribulation we undergo on earth is just peanuts compared to that.

[Samudra]

Ziska
You have to understand.Or atleast make an attempt to understand what we have been trying to say.Pray tell me ,rationally how we are all born as sinners ? Is a one day old baby a sinner ? So if it dies , it dies as a sinner and goes to hell ?

Try putting in a positive interpretation.I only say interpretation , hence i do not attack or try to debunk your scriptures.We are all born with the effects of lots of good things and bad things we did in the past.Previous birth..... and we are affected by it , the degree varies with the merit of your deeds...

Hindus called it Karma.May be "sin" and "sinners" are two words as (in)famous as jihaad and kaffir in Islam ? . It always depends on how you want to look at it.So please do re-think about "sin"...it might not mean the "sin" you are talking about but rather something like karma.

Please understand , that all is not right with christianity nor with any other religion.Every religion on this good earth has been subject to influences either by priests,social and geographical factors , wealth of the community and such.It is for us to look at the what good a religion can offer ,and choose the best of them.

[Ziska]

This is where we part ways You try to work things out rationally. I rely on the Bible. The Bible says that we are conceived sinners. That is all the proof I need. If I wanted more, I could point to the world in general. I mean, is there any atrocity that people wouldn't do? People are scum. Some people seem nice, but put them in a situation, and then see. Look at the hurricanes in Florida. Law abiding people turned into looting animals. Or Vietnam. Good ol' all-american boys turned into rapists and so on.

We all have the capacity to do great evil, and the only good we can do is through the work of the Holy Spirit.

[Samudra]

Ziska
Very well.We will still use Bible....But i only ask for a better interpretation , which is of a positive outlook.You have to understand that such texts have been "tampered" with....Why do you ignore that "tampering" factor ? Bible might be nearly 2000 years old , it has been subject to various translations,interpretations and understandings.

So what is that makes you confident about your understanding of the Bible ?
You can always go wrong in your understanding of the bible...
What makes you so sure , that what you talk about bible is exactly what god meant ?

[Ziska]

Things like the dead sea scrolls would say that the Bible was not tampered with, at least not the text the scholars of King James' day used, but we could argue all day.

There is no way I can prove empirically to someone that the Bible is the word of God. There is no way I can prove to someone that God exists. All that I can do is tell the truth and wait on the Holy Spirit.

My confidence in my beliefs rises from the Holy Spirit. The H.S. touched my heart, and made it possible for me to believe. Natural man (ie, before conversion) is incapable of belief in the LORD. It makes no sense to him.

[Samudra]

Originally Posted by Ziska

There is no way I can prove empirically to someone that the Bible is the word of God. There is no way I can prove to someone that God exists. All that I can do is tell the truth and wait on the Holy Spirit.

My confidence in my beliefs rises from the Holy Spirit. The H.S. touched my heart, and made it possible for me to believe. Natural man (ie, before conversion) is incapable of belief in the LORD. It makes no sense to him.

Bible may indeed be the word of god . But , are we capable of understanding it ? That is the crux. I might be right , when i say your understanding of bible is bad.How exactly do you know , what truth is , until you have realised god himself ?

Wow and you speak about conversion.Please dude , awaken to reality.
There are many religions , all lead to god. Xtianity is one of them. All men , religious or non-religious , xtian or a pagan makes no difference before god ...

While i type this , you never know to what extent i have realised god.Nor do i know about you.Just imagine , i might have had a direct perception of god himself !

[The Chap]

[quote=chandragupta]There are many religions , all lead to god. QUOTE]

Says whom?
The Vicar Of Christ would disagree. Certainly the heir apparent (Ratsinger - current head of the "Congregation for The Doctrine Of The Faith") might. It used to be known as the Holy Inquisition. Nobody expects T.C.F.T.D.of T.F etc... (with appologies to Monty Python)

Whilst an atheist myself and as such having no truck with all this Deism the above quoted statement is non-sensical pluralist rot.

How about the followers of Kali? Or Satanist types?

Mind you, I note you use "god" and not "God". Hmmm...

[mostlymad]

Originally Posted by Ziska

When Adam fell (and the Bible consistently blames him for this, not Eve), all mankind fell with him. We are all guilty of Adam's sin.

Ziska, I must contradict you on this, literally, and by impression.

Timothy 2:11-2:14

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Eve is clearly blamed here, and not only for transgression, but for being the first to transgress. Adam's guilt is that he gave into Eve.

By impression: sin is transmitted through the woman; women and repeatedly referred to as unclean throughout the bible; Eve and all women after her are severely punished for her transgression.

The bible is so derogatory toward women it is highly likely that most people, if they take the book literally, will view Eve, as a women, and all women, in an unfavourable light - seductresses, unclean, weak, property of men, accountable to men even when making decisions.

[mostlymad]

Originally Posted by Ziska

People are s***.

I hope you don't mean this. God created us (people in his image, christians are fond of saying. So what does this imply, and what is the point of creating s*** in the first place? That would make creation a sick game - make s*** and expect it to act beyond reproach (all the while loving and praising the god who gave them this impossible challenge)

[Samudra]

The Chap
Kali ? Do you know what the real Kali cult is ?
Please refrain from making such comments , which might prove your lack of knowledge in the area.

Whole of Indian Bengal , worships KALI FYI.

[The Chap]

Originally Posted by chandragupta

The Chap
Kali ? Do you know what the real Kali cult is ?
Please refrain from making such comments , which might prove your lack of knowledge in the area.

Whole of Indian Bengal , worships KALI FYI.

I should have been more specific. The cult of Thugee. Appologies
The thrust of the point remains however.

And ... just 'cos "whole of Indian Bengal" worships aforementioned goddess, does not mean that she exists any more than the overwhelming majority of under fives believing in Santa makes him real. Manifest, certainly. At department stores from mid November onwards.

And ... I'm affraid that I shall not be refraining from such comments. It's a site that almost enshrines ( ) freedom of speech and diversity of opinion. That's why I and many others value it so highly.

And ... "might" and "prove" combined with the "lack etc.". Well honestly. I ask you. The "might" bit is on the right track. The proof I shall leave to the religious

[Samudra]

Chap
There could be no justification for comparing Kali with satan , which easily projects your total ignorance about the Kali cult or howsoever you wish to name it here to satisfy your dreamy imaginations of the kali.Reality , as always is different.That post i believe was made just to prove your point, easliy ignoring the importance of learning before talking.

Its is totally your perogative to compare Kalis existence to that of Santa Clause.Its your belief.I do not ask you to refrain from making any comments.I have no right to do so.

I like this board , for here are members who know what they are talking about , unlike your post which ignores the great philisophical knowledge that prevails in India and the world.

Deism , to you might just be pluralistic rot to people like you would not recognise the very essential of nature that diversity is un-avoidable and will always comewhatsoever exist in this good earth. Having to put up with people like you , i know deism is what is also good irrespective of what you would dream it to be.

Deism is defined in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1941, as: "[From Latin Deus, God.Deity] The doctrine or creed of a Deist." And Deist is defined in the same dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

I do not wish to prove , that you would like to make your points just for the heck of it , but i do keep wondering how deism is what we were discussing?

Afterall , we were discussing religious texts and possiblites of them being misinterpreted for over a couple of milleniums.Religious texts were discussing had to do with "revealed" religions which deists do not believe in.

Free speech and diversity of opinion are important , so is the essential human quality of deceny and respect for what the guy next door rationally believes in. Millions and millions have been slaughtered , just because of this lack of respect for the rational belief of others.

That being said , there are people who argue , because they think they are right.
Others argue , just to prove themselves right.

[Ray]

Chap,

Being from Bengal, I know a wee bit about Kali since the Hindu festivals are held as community celebrations where all religious denominations attend. Obviously, one does not like to miss the fun and games and the firecrackers!

Of course, superficially looking at the Goddess Kali, it is rather fearsome. The colour is blue (and not black alone as it made out). This is known as the 'Dakhina Kali'. It has a garland of skulls and its tongue is out.

Kali is a destructive and creative mother goddess in Hinduism. Kali is the fierce aspect of Devi, God's energy, i.e., Shakti or God as the Divine Mother, who is fundamental to all other Hindu deities.

The continuous, ongoing work of Creation is described as "the play of Kali".

Kali is considered to be the destroyer of evil spirits and the preserver of devotees. She is the consort of Shiva. She is blue in colour or even black (Sasan Kali) in contrast to her consort, Shiva, who is white.

Kali is the common name for Energy in her form as Shiva's wife, or Shakti. She is also called Durga. Other names are: Bhowani Devi, Sati, Rudrani, Parvati, Chinnamastika, Kamakshi, Uma, Menakshi, Himavati, Kumari. These names, if repeated, are believed to give special power to the worshipper.

Since she is the Goddess of Energy or Shakti, she has been worshipped by all whose profession involves strength. Maybe that is why the Thuggees worshipped Kali.

The skulls that she has as garlands symbolises the death of evil forces. The extended tongue is the way Indians express a serious error. Lord Shiva to control her had laid down in her path and since she was in total raptness to destroy evil, she failed to see her consort in their path. Because she had stepped on him (a very serious error if one's feet touches one's elders or husband as per Indian traditions), she bites her tongue.

Unfortunately, westerners look at the superficial aspects and draw conclusions. Since the British were the rulers of India, they have laid a legacy of humbug stories that has mystified the world. After all, they controlled the access to the world.

Hinduism has a whole lot of symbolicisms. Of course, it is difficult for the callow to comprehend its symbolicism.

[Ray]

Chap,

As far as Santa Claus is concerned, it is also a symbolcism, that has drawn to the real figure of Saint Nicholas. If under 5 believe in Santa, I think it is great. Why be a spoil sport?

The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in Patara, a village in what is now Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus' words to "sell what you own and give the money to the poor," Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to the those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships.

Under the Roman Emperor Diocletian, who ruthlessly persecuted Christians, Bishop Nicholas suffered for his faith, was exiled and imprisoned. The prisons were so full of bishops, priests, and deacons, there was no room for the real criminals—murderers, thieves and robbers. After his release, Nicholas attended the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. He died December 6, AD 343 in Myra and was buried in his cathedral church, where a unique relic, called manna, formed in his grave. This liquid substance was said to have healing powers which fostered the growth of devotion to Nicholas. The anniversary of his death became a day of celebration, St. Nicholas Day.

Through the centuries many stories and legends have been told of St. Nicholas' life and deeds. These accounts help us understand his extraordinary character and why he is so beloved and revered as protector and helper of those in need.

One story tells of a poor man with three daughters. In those days a young woman's father had to offer prospective husbands something of value—a dowry. The larger the dowry, the better the chance that a young woman would find a good husband. Without a dowry, a woman was unlikely to marry. This poor man's daughters, without dowries, were therefore destined to be sold into slavery. Mysteriously, on three different occasions, a bag of gold appeared in their home-providing the needed dowries. The bags of gold, tossed through an open window, are said to have landed in stockings or shoes left before the fire to dry. This led to the custom of children hanging stockings or putting out shoes, eagerly awaiting gifts from Saint Nicholas. Sometimes the story is told with gold balls instead of bags of gold. That is why three gold balls, sometimes represented as oranges, are one of the symbols for St. Nicholas. And so St. Nicholas is a gift-giver.

One of the oldest stories tells of the townspeople of Myra celebrating the good saint on the eve of St. Nicholas' feast day. A band of Arab pirates from Crete had come into the district. They stole treasures from the Church of Saint Nicholas to take away as booty. As they were leaving town, they snatched a young boy, Basilios, to make into a slave. The emir, or ruler, selected Basilios to be his personal cupbearer, as not knowing the language, Basilios would not understand what the king said to those around him. So, for the next year Basilios waited on the king, bringing his wine in a beautiful golden cup. For Basilios' parents, devastated at the loss of their only child, the year passed slowly, filled with grief. As the next St. Nicholas' feast day approached, Basilios' mother would not join in the festivity, as it was now a day of tragedy. However, she was persuaded to have a simple observance at home-with quiet prayers for Basilios' safekeeping. Meanwhile, as Basilios was fulfilling his tasks serving the emir, he was suddenly whisked up and away. St. Nicholas appeared to the terrified boy, blessed him, and set him down at his home back in Myra. Imagine the joy and wonderment when Basilios amazingly appeared before his parents, still holding the king's golden cup. This is the first story told of St. Nicholas protecting children—which became his primary role in the West.

Another story tells of three theological students, traveling on their way to study in Athens. A wicked innkeeper robbed and murdered them, hiding their remains in a large pickling tub. It so happened that Bishop Nicholas, traveling along the same route, stopped at this very inn. In the night he dreamed of the crime, got up, and summoned the innkeeper. As Nicholas prayed earnestly to God the three boys were restored to life and wholeness. In France the story is told of three small children, wandering in their play until lost, lured, and captured by an evil butcher. St. Nicholas appears and appeals to God to return them to life and to their families. And so St. Nicholas is the patron and protector of children.

Several stories tell of Nicholas and the sea. When he was young, Nicholas sought the holy by making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. There as he walked where Jesus walked, he sought to more deeply experience Jesus' life, passion, and resurrection. Returning by sea, a mighty storm threatened to wreck the ship. Nicholas calmly prayed. The terrified sailors were amazed when the wind and waves suddenly calmed, sparing them all. And so St. Nicholas is the patron of sailors and voyagers.

Other stories tell of Nicholas saving his people from famine, sparing the lives of those innocently accused, and much more. He did many kind and generous deeds in secret, expecting nothing in return. Within a century of his death he was celebrated as a saint. Today he is venerated in the East as wonder, or miracle worker and in the West as patron of a great variety of persons-children, mariners, bankers, pawn-brokers, scholars, orphans, laborers, travelers, merchants, judges, paupers, marriageable maidens, students, children, sailors, victims of judicial mistakes, captives, perfumers, even thieves and murderers! He is known as the friend and protector of all in trouble or need.

Sailors, claiming St. Nicholas as patron, carried stories of his favor and protection far and wide. St. Nicholas chapels were built in many seaports. As his popularity spread during the Middle Ages, he became the patron saint of Apulia (Italy), Sicily, Greece, and Lorraine (France), and many cities in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Russia, Belgium, and the Netherlands (See list). Following his baptism in Constantinople, Vladimir I of Russia brought St. Nicholas' stories and devotion to St. Nicholas to his homeland where Nicholas became the most beloved saint. Nicholas was so widely revered that more than 2,000 churches were named for him, including three hundred in Belgium, thirty-four in Rome, twenty-three in the Netherlands and more than four hundred in England.

Nicholas' tomb in Myra became a popular place of pilgrimage. Because of the many wars and attacks in the region, some Christians were concerned that access to the tomb might become difficult. For both the religious and commercial advantages of a major pilgrimage site, the Italian cities of Venice and Bari vied to get the Nicholas relics. In the spring of 1087, sailors from Bari succeeded in spiriting away the bones, bringing them to Bari, a seaport on the southeast coast of Italy. An impressive church was built over St. Nicholas' crypt and many faithful journeyed to honor the saint who had rescued children, prisoners, sailors, famine victims, and many others through his compassion, generosity, and the countless miracles attributed to his intercession. The Nicholas shrine in Bari was one of medieval Europe's great pilgrimage centers and Nicholas became known as "Saint in Bari." To this day pilgrims and tourists visit Bari's great Basilica di San Nicola.

Through the centuries St. Nicholas has continued to be venerated by Catholics and Orthodox and honored by Protestants. By his example of generosity to those in need, especially children, St. Nicholas continues to be a model for the compassionate life.

Widely celebrated in Europe, St. Nicholas' feast day, December 6th, kept alive the stories of his goodness and generosity. In Germany and Poland, boys dressed as bishops begged alms for the poor—and sometimes for themselves! In the Netherlands and Belgium, St. Nicholas arrived on a steamship from Spain to ride a white horse on his gift-giving rounds. December 6th is still the main day for gift giving and merrymaking in much of Europe. For example, in the Netherlands St. Nicholas' Day is celebrated with the sharing of candies (thrown in the door), chocolate initial letters, small gifts, and riddles. Dutch children leave carrots and hay in their shoes for the horse, hoping St. Nicholas will exchange them for small gifts. Simple gift-giving in early Advent helps preserve a Christmas Day focus on the Christ Child.

How is this fairy tale? Myth or what?

When 5 year olds get a wee bit bigger than 10, then they are slowly told by the parents the real story about Santa Claus as I was told. Yet, I still beleive in Santa Claus' symbolicism. It does bring the festive air!

Skinflints and Ebenezer Scrooges don't like to believe the symbolicism of Santa Claus.

[The Chap]

Lieth. How to approach this one eh?
Best to start with the most contentious bit. At no point did I compare Kali to Satan. Besides which, I've already appologised if any inadvertant offence was caused.
I'm also rather disgruntaled at repeatedly being impugned as some sort of morlock inspired cultural yahoo. I am perfectly (and to my detriment) frequently capable of giving up a big mea culpa when wrong. Furthermore I am accutely aware that my typing and attendant spelling are appalling. My reason and education are not.
I do happen to think that deism and theism (something else for you to look up ) are fallacies promulgated by extraordinary, florid, often beautiful sophistry. Fascinating delusions they are; verifiable beyond indulgent fantasy, they are not.

Ray,
Thank you for the missive! As for St. Nick, I meant the childish commercial icon of popular culture. I could have equally chosen the Easter Bunny, the Bogey Man or some other cultural conceit such as judicial transparency
Callow? I almost feel flattered But not that much. As soon as I find out what Websters has to say on the matter etc.

There are indeed those who argue 'cos they think they are right. The same folk argue, if I am not mistaken, to prove that point. I have no idea why the people that think they are wrong and really have no point to prove bother getting out of bed.