gays.. good or bad?

[Fonnicker]

If they cant speak English then they should take an after school course with an ESL teacher, not go to a sperate school where they can get away with not speaking a word of English, this is where the melting pot theory fails as we allow it to become a salad bowl with a "Little Havana", a "China Town", "Little Mexico" etc and the other mostly minority communities found in all major cities and suburban areas.

I agree that learning to speak english has to be required. I think you can have both worlds, tho. I don't think that there is anything wrong with a "Little Havana" or "China Town." Astoria is primarily greek isn't it? Is it refered to as "Little Athens"? I don't live in NYC, so I don't know. I think american is stronger with cultural diversity. We shouldn't be surprised that like cultures group together. We all tend to socialize with those we identify with. We live among people with identify with. I don't see the harm. From what I know, these cultural groups still consider themselves Americans. We should be proud of it. IMO.

[Ziska]

Yes I believe that you have to believe in the Jesus Christ of the bible to be saved. All others are going to hell.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - St. John 14: 6

The bible also states categorically that Jesus was the son of God.

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." - St. John 14 9-12.

We could argue about whether Jesus really said the things recorded in the bible, or that they were written be people who wanted him to be God, etc. Like I said earlier however, according to the Bible, Jesus is the Son of God, and that is all that matters.

[ZFBoxcar]

but then...what difference does homosexuality make? If you don't believe in forcing people to accept Christ, but do believe in forcing them accept heterosexuality...aren't they still going to hell?

[mostlymad]

Originally Posted by Ziska

But I cannot change my mind, and do not want to. So, if you want to argue scripture with me, I'd welcome it. But if you want to convince me I'm acting irrationally, we're wasting our time.

very interesting info on the solas, Ziska. Thank you.

I wouldn't try to convince anyone they were acting irrationally unless it was harming them, or someone else. The teachings of Jesus are good, the Old Testament too harsh for my liking. Following the principles of the new testament shouldn't lead to irrational behaviour. It's whenpeople apply their own interpretation for convenience or justification that many problems arise, I think.

[mostlymad]

Originally Posted by Ziska

Yes I believe that you have to believe in the Jesus Christ of the bible to be saved. All others are going to hell.

Ziska, according to that belief, what happens to those who never had a chance to know about Jesus (unbaptised babies, people who had no exposure to christianity, those born before Jesus, like Moses? Not a criticism, just a question.

[mostlymad]

Originally Posted by Fonnicker

The toughest course I ever took in Grad school was historiography.

I had to interview someone in that field. Fascinating! He said pretty much what you did, about interpreting history.

[Ray]

Thump Thump.

Doesn't work.

[Fonnicker]

Originally Posted by mostlymad

Ziska, according to that belief, what happens to those who never had a chance to know about Jesus (unbaptised babies, people who had no exposure to christianity, those born before Jesus, like Moses? Not a criticism, just a question.

I was just about to make the same argument. It's the "by that name" that I have issue with. I can't subscribe to the thought that God would cast asside his children that have not been exposed to this viewpoint. Of course the natural argument that I feel is coming shortly is,..."that's why we have missionaries!" Well they had better get a move on! Every day thousands and thousands go to hell becuase the missionaries haven't shown up yet.

[Fonnicker]

Originally Posted by mostlymad

I had to interview someone in that field. Fascinating! He said pretty much what you did, about interpreting history.

That's the inconsistency of history for you! Most people that haven't taken history courses above the 101's in college or basic history in High School, don't understantd it. It bored the heck out of them because it usually involved some long text book, spending hours copying timelines off the blackboard as the teacher spoke and taking multiple-choice and fill in the blank tests. I was one of those people, but was lucky enough to stumble upon an excellent professor who made it quite interesting. Once you get beyond the basics you get into what is basically interpretation of literature because you are required to work from primary source documentation.

Our kids are still taught that Columbus discovered America, and the only reason we fought the civil war was because of slavery. Shocking, but true. History is like any other field. You have to keep on top of your reading.

[Ziska]

Are any of you familiar with the doctrine of predestination? Essentially, it is that God has chosen who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. He made this descision before the foundation of the world.

For example, I believe that God chose me to be saved before He created the earth. Not because I deserve to be saved, or because He could see that I would be a good person in the future. He chose me simply because He wanted to.

What this means is that if someone living in the highlands of Papua New Guinea is Elect, God will ensure that the gospel reaches him somehow, be it through missionaries, or whatever.

Also, a person's understanding is in relation to their ability. Someone who is mentally handicapped might only have to have the vaugest understanding of Christ to be saved. The bible speaks of children being saved in the womb.

The Westminster Confession of Faith states that God may choose to save the souls of infants who die. We hope and pray that He does, but we just don't know.

And ray, I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I can't do that. All I can do is tell you what I know to be the truth. For that truth to be effective, the Holy Spirit would have to work in your heart.

[Ray]

Ziska,

You can't convert me anyway. I have seen it all.

I have NO religion since there is no cognisable evidence that God himself relayed his message to the Prophets who claim that it was so relayed and then wrote down the stuff in Books that are the be all and end all of life!

I respect all Holy Books and the teachings. Not because God faxed it to the Prophets, but because they are good guidelines for an orderly society. Yes, all Books.

I personally believe that these so called Prophets were good and wise men, who were fed up with the unruly ways of the world. So, they brought in the concept of God and the principle of rewards and fear and punishment to bring idiots and barbarians to heel.

They did good actually and I am thankful to them; ALL.

Have you seen God? Have you seen heaven? Have you seen Hell? Have you seen the 72 Virigins? So, how is it that your Word is the sole way to live this life?

God (as per all religion) is benevolent, forgiving and compassionate. Therefore, why use fear and damnation, the concept of Heaven and Hell to scare guys to believe in God?

Tell me which religion does not use Fear and Damnation as a weapon to keep all on the straight and narrow?

You were born to Christian parents and so you think your Prophet is Jesus and the Bible is the only way out. Fair enough.

Now, what if you were born a Moslem. Would it mean that you would not follow the Koran?

Both are the Word of the one and single entity - God.

And yet, both have rather divergent paths. And yet, they are both based on the Word of God.

How come God speaks in different tongues and languages and ideas?

Take Hindusim. They talk of myths and tales with a whole lot of Gods, each saying something good or the other or so their devotees believe. Their concept is that God is 'formless' and one. Yet they have many Gods to take care of each type of temperament or worldy situations! It is to my mind more of a spiritual placebo to ease the tormented mind that cannot cope with the worldly stresses. Not a bad idea too?

Take Zen, Take Confucionism.

Heavens, now who is right? And who has seen God or received a fax from or had a webchat with Him or has seen Hell or Heaven or even the 72 Virigins!

Therefore, I take solace in the good words of every religion, but not their fairy tales, their promises, their control through fear and damnation.

Yet, I don't grudge what anyone else follows, except when they Bible bash or thump the pulpit or rent the atmospherics with their relgious scriptures 5 times a day or clouding the atmosphere with an overdose of incense and joss stick burning!

I would like to state, this is not to debunk or hurt anyone's religious beliefs, but to just indicate that rationality should not be lost sight of. Blind Faith harms rationality.

[Ray]

Ziska,

You astound.

You sound like some 18th Century Missionary coming to save the Black Pygmies of Africa who are just 'dying' to be saved! eek! What a laugh. You are being very embarrassing.

Are you a Mummy of Egypt come to life?

Or are you trying to be provocative and odious for the sake of it?

What's this?

What Spirit? How much is the Proof of this Spirit? What tommy rot. What is this "Truth" that you know?

I have NO religion since I renounced it long back. I just know that I must believe in MYSELF.

My own acts alone would be for posterity to judge. I will not take the recourse to Holy Books to condone my faults.

Please note that each Holy Book of any religion has 'escape clauses' inbuilt in the Holy Books to justify errors. Yes sir, each religion.

I rather be damned if I have lived a life that made others miserable rather than cower for justification in the Holy Books' escape clauses.

Also, I will not wait for God (who I have never seen) to pass a Judgement on me. I rather be damned for my wrong acts (as per the current societal norms) than wait for some escoteric judgements.

That way my Parents' Judgement were more important since their judgement were cognisasble and took immediate effect.

Are any of you familiar with the doctrine of predestination? Essentially, it is that God has chosen who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. He made this descision before the foundation of the world.

For example, I believe that God chose me to be saved before He created the earth. Not because I deserve to be saved, or because He could see that I would be a good person in the future. He chose me simply because He wanted to.

What this means is that if someone living in the highlands of Papua New Guinea is Elect, God will ensure that the gospel reaches him somehow, be it through missionaries, or whatever.

Hilarious.

1. "God chose me to be saved before He created the earth."

So God chose you to be saved?
Why? Were you drowning?
And which of the many Gods that are around who chose to save you? And why you alone? And why that God alone and not the whole lot of them of all the relgions. Why are Gods being choosy?

2. So he made the decision to save you before the world was made?

Jay Leno would actually love you.

So you were visualised to be 'visiting' this Earth even before it came into being?

These type of logic makes we wonder how you all can claim that the brown men and the black men are dumb (there are some racial theories which attribute low IQ to those who are not the ammalgam of all colours i.e. white).
It might be interesting to note that the facts on the ground in the US shows Orientals appeat to be rather smarter as a group.
.
3. "Not because I deserve to be saved, or because He could see that I would be a good person in the future. He chose me simply because He wanted to."

This God is rather whimsical. He just simply decides to save some because he 'wants' to do it.
Why?
Is He as great player of tick tack toe ( a game played by children and on the computer)?
This type of thought is most insulting to God, if you don't mind - that he is whimsical! If he is, then who will have Faith in such a God. It will be only those who are not sure of themselves and hoping for the best and hoping against hope.

4. "What this means is that if someone living in the highlands of Papua New Guinea is Elect, God will ensure that the gospel reaches him somehow, be it through missionaries, or whatever."

The missionaries missed your ancestors? Or did they come along with God and met Abraham on the Mount?

What if Islam reaches them (Papuans on the Highlands of New Guinea) first? They are damned?
Then, the Sultan of Brunei is damned. The missionaries missed him as his ancestors were eating worms in the drk foliage of the forest, I presume.
Yet, this 'damned' Sultan while he is on Earth, he is having a jolly good time! Many wives and hell of a lot of money! How come the poor Paupans who have been 'saved' are living in poverty and God is not saving them from their miserable life and instead is giving all the fun and games to that Sultan of Brunei who actually is damned as per your ideas!
Funny God, I must say. No balance between good and bad (going by your theories that is!)

Your arguments are as pathetic in putting your case forward as some Islamists who are justifying 'jihad' by quoting one part of the whole story and conveniently leaving out the gory interpretation!

Do try harder and bring in better arguments or extracts from the Bible so that you are not embarrassing to many.

Unfortunately, I don't know where my Father (who is no more) has kept his Bible and other relgious books away. Or else, I would have offered some assistance!

[Fonnicker]

Predestination? I love that one. It's rogue puritanism! A bizzaar offshoot of the Anglican church. Those fleeing to America from Europe to avoid religious persecution idealised that concept along with the debate of Good Deeds vs Good Works.

The problem with predestination is that it makes, by it's own logic, the concept of a "savior" like Jesus a contridiction. If I'm predestined to be saved, I don't need saving. Also, those who are "predestined" have no idea whether they are or not. Even you, Ziska, who has felt the touch of God and has led a life worthy of salvation may very well be predestined to somewhere other than heaven.

So, what is the purpose of going to church? What is the purpose of worship? What is the point in recruiting members to your church? Why care? God has already made up his mind about your soul. And if God has predetermined that you are to be saved, then you can act sinfully the rest of your days because you are guaranteed salvation regardless. If not, and you argue this point, then you make the argument that God is falible.

The Salem Witch Trials were conducted by people with the same ideas. Under that same doctrine, women weren't allowed to teach scripture because it was believed that they were incapable of understanding the text. Why? Because some of them believed that no woman could be predestined.

[Trooth]

I have a question that i cannot think of a way of expressing without it sounding a bit trite and insulting but that is not my intention :-

God created everything so that we would gain salvation by virtue of worshipping Him. He created a universe, planets, solar systems, stars, animals, plants, death, destruction, plague and pestilence, war and fear. Hatred, love, kindness etc. All emotional, all thought, all deeds, all actions, all profit, all loss, all of everything. He did this purely so that a subset of His creations could, in essence, sing "For God's a jolly good fellow".

Bit of an ego this God?

[Fonnicker]

Originally Posted by Trooth

I have a question that i cannot think of a way of expressing without it sounding a bit trite and insulting but that is not my intention :-

God created everything so that we would gain salvation by virtue of worshipping Him. He created a universe, planets, solar systems, stars, animals, plants, death, destruction, plague and pestilence, war and fear. Hatred, love, kindness etc. All emotional, all thought, all deeds, all actions, all profit, all loss, all of everything. He did this purely so that a subset of His creations could, in essence, sing "For God's a jolly good fellow".

Bit of an ego this God?

lol - sure. You'd think if you knew all, you'd also know how great you were and wouldn't need constant reminding.