Thread: What if: Germany went ahead with Operation Sea Lion?

As I stated, there was one general who was confident that he could smashed the Germans. Montgomery brought 3rd division to Dunkirk fully intact.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

As I stated, there was one general who was confident that he could smashed the Germans. Montgomery brought 3rd division to Dunkirk fully intact.

And how would her perform when Rommel or Guderian smashed in to him followed by several other panzer divisions? In Africa Germans on the attack most often resulted in a British defeat. The UK's best tank the Maltida II was all but used up after Arras. If the panzer's had not stopped the BEF would have gone into the bag.

Originally Posted by zraver

Might as well be a single person as they are the ones who established the Kingdom of Italy.

Mazzini achieved exactly nothing...

Garibaldi was a general and Emanuel was King leaving Cavour who I will concede did more than Benito.

BF, by your standards then was Chamberlain or Asquith the worst PM in British history?

Not chasing you down that rabbit hole Z. Mussolini was a disaster for Italy. Anything he achieved in his first 18 or so years was ruined by the destruction he brought upon his nation in the last 4 or so. Didn't have to go down that way.

Originally Posted by zraver

And how would her perform when Rommel or Guderian smashed in to him followed by several other panzer divisions? In Africa Germans on the attack most often resulted in a British defeat. The UK's best tank the Maltida II was all but used up after Arras. If the panzer's had not stopped the BEF would have gone into the bag.

You're missing the point here. There will be a fight and the prep work was done. The panzers can't take on a trench.

As it was, the evac was organized, disciplined, and it was a fighting withdraw with 2 French divisions actively keeping the Germans at bay. The force did not collapse. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else just because the evac would not happen.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

You're missing the point here. There will be a fight and the prep work was done. The panzers can't take on a trench.

As it was, the evac was organized, disciplined, and it was a fighting withdraw with 2 French divisions actively keeping the Germans at bay. The force did not collapse. There is absolutely no reason to expect anything else just because the evac would not happen.

Those two divisions would not last long with the full might of the panzers thrown at them. I also think the Panzers could take trenches- they did so in Poland in 39, Ardennes in 40, and the USSR in 41. Built up defenses could blunt the panzers if it was properly set up such as at Tobruck. But in France the BEF doesn't have AT mines, barbed wire or a lot of AT guns. They also lack an organized plan to defend the beachhead. The BEF had spent the sitzkrieg training to advance not retreat, with the obvious exception of the 3rd which trained to retreat not assault.

Originally Posted by zraver

Those two divisions would not last long with the full might of the panzers thrown at them.

Historically, those divisions held them back long enough for the evac to occur and then, they surrendered, not destroyed.

Originally Posted by zraver

I also think the Panzers could take trenches- they did so in Poland in 39, Ardennes in 40, and the USSR in 41.

With proper engineering support which needed to be built up.

Originally Posted by zraver

Built up defenses could blunt the panzers if it was properly set up such as at Tobruck. But in France the BEF doesn't have AT mines, barbed wire or a lot of AT guns. They also lack an organized plan to defend the beachhead. The BEF had spent the sitzkrieg training to advance not retreat, with the obvious exception of the 3rd which trained to retreat not assault.

Nothing you wrote would lead me to believe that it would be anything like a cake walk.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Historically, those divisions held them back long enough for the evac to occur and then, they surrendered, not destroyed.

With proper engineering support which needed to be built up.

Nothing you wrote would lead me to believe that it would be anything like a cake walk.

The BEf was faced by the 15th Panzer group (2pz 1 inf div) which was part of Army group A with a total of 7 panzer and 45 infantry divisions. With the failure of the allied armored counter attack at Arras there was nothing between the Germans and the channel but a retreating army that was already destroying its equipment. There were no prepared lines. It had 1 intact British division that would be rotated East to cover the flank of the BEF when Belgium through in the towel.

Those French divisions were not pressed with the full weight of what could ahve been brought to bear when allied lines collapsed.

A retreating army with Operation DYNAMO already being initiated. Of course they were going to destroy their own equipment. But your premise is that the BEF was already beat. There was discipline, order, and will. Given an able general (Montgomery) and the lack of room for maneuver (there was no rear for a German blitzkreig to attack, the rear being the English Channel), I can't see anything but a slugfest.

Sir,I see your point,but IF the BEF waits too much on the continent,there won't be a BEF.French troops performed a great defensive operation and the BEF could have done equally good.But the time needed to prepare the defenses is needed for the Germans to catch up.Instead of LW trying to sink RN ships and bombing beaches,you'll have a combined operation that eventually will breach the defense in one place.Then it's over.

About tanks capturing trenches it's a bit more than that.Soviet tanks alone passed over the trenches then died between AT guns,swarming infantry and engineer defensive works.German and Soviet combined arms operations managed to break defensive lines.

Of course the BEF was going to die. That's not my point. My point is that it was going to be bloody, long, and hard fought.