Thread: What if the Confederates had Gatling guns?

Originally Posted by S2

"...You actually do not come into sight of the trench line until you are about 150 yards out...."

Out from the woods?

The marker in the photo is maybe five yards removed from the edge of the tree line. That means the Union forces could re-assemble on the cleared slope evident from the photos and begin their uphill advance before cresting the top and entering the line-of-sight of the Confederate breastworks, correct?

Absolutely. The curve of the ground is such that as you emerge from the wood line the ground rises in front of you for another 50 yards. When I lead trips through here I have my guests inside Doles trenches and crouch down a bit as if they were behind a defensive work. I then rumble my fat ass out of the wood line and have them shout when they see the top of my head. In almost every case it is between 150 and 145 yards. I am 6 foot so I am about 5 inches taller than your average ACW soldier.

So before the Confederates could effectively react the column is 100 yards away and running.....no shouting and no shooting. The front rank does not even have their rifles capped. Before many shots ring out the Federals are up and over the parapet.

Shek

How did you find that!?!? I had read an extract and never found it.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

Shek

How did you find that!?!? I had read an extract and never found it.

Thanks!

My GoogleFu is strong

Originally Posted by Shek

Unfortunately for the European armies, it was a lesson not learned, and one that they paid for dearly.

That thesis in my opinion lays it on a bit thick for Petersburg. Many of the issues he raises were done in Europe a full two centuries earlier.

Edit: Now, a "what if the Palatinate had gatling guns at Philippsburg in 1688?" would be interesting

Originally Posted by Shek

Z,

You've quoted a tertiary source at best here -

Not an ACW historian, like I have said repeatedly, WWI is more my thing.

Originally Posted by Shek

My GoogleFu is strong

I am not worthy!

Originally Posted by zraver

Not an ACW historian, like I have said repeatedly, WWI is more my thing.

To quote Axel Rose welcome to the jungle!

Where had the rebel pickets originally been positioned? I'd assume clear on the far side of the woods. Would that be correct? If so, as they were pushed back did the pickets not have a clear view of the forces advancing into the woods and were they not able to alert the breastworks of the Union advance through the woods?

Or were they all...dead?

If so, counter-recon in extremis.

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

To quote Axel Rose welcome to the jungle!

That works both ways because I do know what rapid firing weapons could do to poorly handled troops and how ineffective artillery could be. Imagine if you will that Upton assault into a trap where 4 Gatling's cleverly concealed lay in wake. The site limited the fields of fire, but also eliminated the artillery support. By the time any Union artillery knew there was a problem there is a sea of blue between the muzzles and the confederates. If the front rank of 3 regiments broke under the fire the result would be the rear three lines crashing into them and causing a deadly stalled mass of doomed men.

OK Zraver, you win.

I am just trying to tell you based on my experience as both an Infantry officer and ACW historian all of your "what if's" collapse in the face of historical reality.

You are trying to conflate WW 1 realities with ACW realities.

I don't have enough Harry Turtledove in me to keep going.

They had originally been in the woodline but were driven back.

Originally Posted by Albany Rifles

OK Zraver, you win.

I am just trying to tell you based on my experience as both an Infantry officer and ACW historian all of your "what if's" collapse in the face of historical reality.

You are trying to conflate WW 1 realities with ACW realities.

I don't have enough Harry Turtledove in me to keep going.

Boo... Every time you shoot me down I learn.

"They had originally been in the woodline but were driven back."

Then their purpose as early warning was served. Surely the confederates recognized this covered route to their breastworks as a primary avenue of advance and that their pickets driven from the field as an indicator of an impending attack?

Were the confederate lines at "stand to" and fully-manned? If not, I'd be interested in Shek or you explaining why.

Might not the confederate lines been bent back at this point to diminish some of its vulnerability stemming from a close proximity to a covered assembly area?

Originally Posted by S2

"They had originally been in the woodline but were driven back."

Then their purpose as early warning was served. Surely the confederates recognized this covered route to their breastworks as a primary avenue of advance and that their pickets driven from the field as an indicator of an impending attack?

Were the confederate lines at "stand to" and fully-manned? If not, I'd be interested in Shek or you explaining why.

Might not the confederate lines been bent back at this point to diminish some of its vulnerability stemming from a close proximity to a covered assembly area?

Steve,

Should have been more specific.

The pickets were driven in several hours before. It was not something which would have alarmed the Confederates since this was normal behavior throughout the war. You would always try to push in the opposing pickets if you could. The VIth Corps pushed out almost a full brigade on picket duty against a smaller Confederate force. While it was something that would not unduly alarm Dole and Rodes it did preclude them any early warning. Also the loss of Longstreet and Hill falling ill again caused a lot of movement within the Confederate corps leadership.

These all allowed Upton to move into his attack position in a covered and concealed manner...which is part of the overall plan.

If the Confederate had realized that they were facing the VIth Corps they may have been a little more attentive. The VIth Corps specialized in breaking through defended lines. They did it at 2d Fredericksburg and at Mine Run the previous year using the exact same tactics. And they would use it on a grand scale in April 65 with an entire corps.