Thread: What if? The US entered WWI on the side of the Central Powers

To give an idea of the proximity of Canadian cities in Ontario and Quebec:

The mines were retired by 1906.. also the guns were mostly SA period guns, designed to fight SA war era ships using Harvey armor. Krupp and Krupp Cemented cut penetrations by 15% or more. Even using cocoa powder, velocities still drop off sharply compared to [then] modern naval guns.

Also best in the world is debatable, that honor probably goes to Germany.

Ft Drum in the Philippines was a very modern fort and a threat to a super dreadnough using surplus 14" guns when the USN went to 16". We never even bothered totake it back, we just burned it out, the remains of the Japanese defenders are still interred there...

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Those are total numbers, not North Sea Numbers. And that is the area of the minefield.

almost a million mines were laid in WWI all together. the three biggest barrages where the North Sea, the channel and Oranto and they proved rather in effecitve for the cost in steel, treasure and men.

Then you would be talking about minesweepers not mine layers. The WW2 Flowers were the minelayers.

I said mine warfare

We are not fitting the entire army out for unrestricted combat. We are conducting limited operations to repel an invasion or limited operations in Canada.

ya... thats a lot of men... gold mines in Idaho, Puget Sound, Chicago, Milwaukie, Buffalo, Niagra.... looking at what the Finns did raiders can be a huge problem for the US.

The entire Army isn't involved I doubt the Nevada National Guard is being called to Federal service for this excursion. Nor will the other, On foreign shores, units need to be shipped any of those additional rounds.

Washington State units deployed to the Mexican border.... so ya expect the national guard of all 50 states to be called up... great big honking border to cover. If the guard doesn't do it, the army has to.

Also just to add weight, the First Troop Philadelphia City Cavalry also deployed to Mexico in 1916.

I am sure you have a reference for that. The GF had radio troubles. Mainly having to do with operators. Never have I see where the German fleet conducted a dedicated radio jamming operation during the battle.

World War I: A - D. - Google Books

12th destroyer flottilla and I assumed the hapless 4th tried to radio Jellico when they ran into the Von Der Tan and Hipper's battle cruisers but were jammed out and as a result the Germans made it to Horns Reef and safety. The radio jamming more than likely had a role in the death of the Black Prince as well... she ran into the German pre-dreanoughts and got creamed.... no survivors.

Originally Posted by USSWisconsin

This information I've managed to find appears to be substantiating the feasibilty of Zraver's argument that the GF could have attacked the US east coast - since its newer ships outranged the existing defenses. But those defenses - if in range, were still a substantial threat. the 10" and 12" guns weren't civil war BP guns - the used brown cocao powder - which was close to cordite in penetration and range (the problem was mainly that they were 10" and 12" guns against 13.5" and 15" guns).

I think it's worth taking into consideration that the Royal Navy's modus operandi was to overload ammunition and cordite charges on their ships to where mass amounts of insecure charges were being stored in thinly armored sections of the ship - US coastal guns would not have to penetrate through 11 inches of turret armor to blow a British dreadnought out of the water.

The 12" M1895s which were fairly common on the east coast had a maximum range of 30,000 yards with supercharges and could fire from 35 degrees, dependent on the carriage. The 12" M1890s could plunge at 12,000 yards from 45 degrees.

Originally Posted by tgbyhn

I think it's worth taking into consideration that the Royal Navy's modus operandi was to overload ammunition and cordite charges on their ships to where mass amounts of insecure charges were being stored in thinly armored sections of the ship - US coastal guns would not have to penetrate through 11 inches of turret armor to blow a British dreadnought out of the water.

Thought that practice went away after Jutland.

The 12" M1895s which were fairly common on the east coast had a maximum range of 30,000 yards with supercharges and could fire from 35 degrees, dependent on the carriage.

NO, the M1895MII could reach 29,000yrds with super charges anda special carriage, but the much more common M1895 on the m1901 carriage was limited to 15 degrees. Why.... becuase they didn't need to shoot farther than the fire directors could SEE....

The 12" M1890s could plunge at 12,000 yards from 45 degrees.

1 aimed shot a minute on good days...

Originally Posted by zraver

I said mine warfare

Actually you first claimed

Originally Posted by zraver

IIRC, some thing like 25 mine warfare ships blew up before or during WWI becuase the fusing was so sensitive.

and

Originally Posted by zraver

I'm looking, found that minus those used as Q ships the flower class loss rate was 1 in 6.

all when discussing mine laying. And BTY none of the Flowers were lost minelaying. 6 were lost while mine sweeping. But thats not what the discussion was about.

World War I: A - D. - Google Books

12th destroyer flottilla and I assumed the hapless 4th tried to radio Jellico when they ran into the Von Der Tan and Hipper's battle cruisers but were jammed out and as a result the Germans made it to Horns Reef and safety. The radio jamming more than likely had a role in the death of the Black Prince as well... she ran into the German pre-dreanoughts and got creamed.... no survivors.

All other books I have read cite "Damage to antennas or possible German jamming"

The GF AAR cited their over reliance on visual signals and not properly using the new tech (Wireless)

The german fleet did not have on board jamming capability. They did however say that during the battle that they used spoofing. Having shore stations broadcast as if they were German ships.

The British claimed they were Jammed. The Germans claim they didn't do it.

All ships that claimed jamming had had superstructure damage and broke aerials. And British RDF stations could have IDed the jamming site. It takes a lot of power to jam a transmission when you are the long leg of the triangle

I think it's worth taking into consideration that the Royal Navy's modus operandi was to overload ammunition and cordite charges on their ships to where mass amounts of insecure charges were being stored in thinly armored sections of the ship - US coastal guns would not have to penetrate through 11 inches of turret armor to blow a British dreadnought out of the water.

The Germans learned these lessons from the Battle of Dogger Bank (the nature of the German ships made them much more resisitant to sinking - more compartmentalization, more detailed armor protection.-The British didn't learn about their ammo handling problems at Dogger bank - the Battle of Jutland provided those lessons for them. They did implement fixes following Jutland. But, if they were going to America to fight the USN and bombard the coast, they may have had to resort to these same practices once again to have any hope of carrying enough ammo to accomplish these missions.

Originally Posted by USSWisconsin

The Germans learned these lessons from the Battle of Dogger Bank (the nature of the German ships made them much more resisitant to sinking - more compartmentalization, more detailed armor protection.-The British didn't learn about their ammo handling problems at Dogger bank - the Battle of Jutland provided those lessons for them. They did implement fixes following Jutland. But, if they were going to America to fight the USN and bombard the coast, they may have had to resort to these same practices once again to have any hope of carrying enough ammo to accomplish these missions.

As far as ammunition and charge loads go, if they're going to carry anymore than 30,000 shells and an appropriate amount of charges, they would have to stow shells and charges in areas that are more thinly armored, which would pose a major problem. I can see the RN going through 30,000 shells fairly quick between naval engagements and the coastal forts. They would need to go back to Halifax to replenish both (and the shells and cordite would have to be brought from Britain to Halifax).

I have read accounts ranging from the RN enforcing safety measures that weren't followed at Jutland, to somewhat of a coverup with the investigating admiral being sent to the China Station, to something in between.

Besides lax safety practices, I think one of the overriding problems of the RN is their use of cordite and its tendency to go "super critical".

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Actually you first claimed


and

like I said mine warfare...

all when discussing mine laying. And BTY none of the Flowers were lost minelaying. 6 were lost while mine sweeping. But thats not what the discussion was about.

records are as far as I can access them anyways spotty, hence the generalized term mine warfare

All other books I have read cite "Damage to antennas or possible German jamming"

The GF AAR cited their over reliance on visual signals and not properly using the new tech (Wireless)

The german fleet did not have on board jamming capability. They did however say that during the battle that they used spoofing. Having shore stations broadcast as if they were German ships.

The British claimed they were Jammed. The Germans claim they didn't do it.

All ships that claimed jamming had had superstructure damage and broke aerials. And British RDF stations could have IDed the jamming site. It takes a lot of power to jam a transmission when you are the long leg of the triangle

kk

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

Those are total numbers, not North Sea Numbers. And that is the area of the minefield.

Well, with mines, sinking an enemy ship is icing on the cake. The argument of the effectiveness of sea mines and how many ships they sunk is somewhat besides the point, as the overarching rationale of mines is sea denial. The mines the US had on hand in April 1917 were identical to the one's the RN used and which did sink ships (friendly and enemy U-Boats). But again, sea denial.

A few thousand mines placed across the narrow of the Long Island Sound strait would deny the use of the sea for the British to fire on New York from the north. Placing mines in front of a coastal city to keep the RN dreadnoughts just out of effective range would also deny them use of the sea to target their objectives.

Cordite exploded with fightening regularity in the first few decades of use. Many countries lost battleships to this problem. Often the battleships are sitting at anchor, perhaps fumes accumulated with the inactivity? Would these ships, underway and fully manned, have better air circulation and perhaps be less likely to have this problem? Wouldn't both sides face the same risk?

Cordite explosions in the magazine, not from external cause or firing drill accident - the powder just exploded with unknown provokation. Smokeless powder was reformulated to address this, handling was improved - air tight powder charge cans were used, and it became less common.

Originally Posted by USSWisconsin

Cordite exploded with fightening regularity in the first few decades of use. Many countries lost battleships to this problem. Often the battleships are sitting at anchor, perhaps fumes accumulated with the inactivity? Would these ships, underway and fully manned, have better air circulation and perhaps be less likely to have this problem? Wouldn't both sides face the same risk?

Cordite explosions in the magazine, not from external cause or firing drill accident - the powder just exploded with unknown provokation. Smokeless powder was reformulated to address this, handling was improved - air tight powder charge cans were used, and it became less common.

British cordite was extremely volatile due to its composition. US and German propellants were much less volatile, US SDP being remarkably stable.

Originally Posted by zraver

I feel ya

Had more resources there, it's really a shame

ya, and then transport them to the coast, find the vessels, train the crews, plan the feilds, lay them, mark them...

Easter CONUS railway network was pretty much developed at the time.

still looking, found one class that suffered losses of 1 in 6

My point was that if you lost 25 fishing ships to plant 5,000 mines, well it goes under acceptable losses, not many dead, no material damage...

And the Japanese (Port Aurthur), French and British (Gallippoli), Americans (damn the torpedoes (mines) full speed ahead)....

Did they had better options?
When I mentioned Russians their primary goal was not to defeat Germany, but to enter Berlin before westerners.

There are only a few places where the mines can play a major role, but those locations also offer the threat of impedeing USN movements.

I am not going into details where and how many will be laid, just say that US laid them (a lot) and you will slower Jellico. Times is crucial, oh and RN speed

they have problems, but the mechnaics have the proper tools, remove those tools and ....

USA was producing a lot of weapons for UK, as shown by other members there were a lot of them on stock, meaning US could use them.

The source the other guy used earlier gave exact numbers and Ya I guess we can add 2 months production to that. Now care to list all the different military uses for the machine gun?

I was only showing you can have same amount of machine guns on hand. tbgyhn says there were 12,500 pieces UK wont get, and USA has ammo for. that's 20x more then what USA has according to your numbers. Should be enough.

They can't refuse battle, of the US coast is at the RN mercy and public morale takes a huge hit- why fight when the miltiary won't...

20 subs.... Portsmouth, Norflk, Baltimore, Philidelphia, Savannah, Charleston, Key West, Pennsacola, Mobile, Washington, Nantuckett.... 20 is not even enough for 1 per port.

Same as mines, you need them to slower the RN. Also you can pack them in groups of 4-5 and occasionally sink a ship or two to buy more time. That's not refusing a fight, that's picking a fight you can fight.

doubtful, thats why mine clearing operations are for.

Are they time consuming?

The officer corps had been gutted, which in turn gutted tactical skill- in 38 in Mongolia the Japanese were complaining of Russian accuracy. The officers arriving post purge were not long serving proffesionals and were also hobbled by the commissars. To add to th woes, instead of creating a few really good units, the T-34 were sent out in peny packets- a few here a few there....

That's a myth. Russians deployed 1500+ T-34 by 1941 (out of 8500 total) while Germans had 1100 tanks with 50 mm or larger cannon (out of 3000+ total).

I was talking about radio jamming, which the German's used quite effectively at Jutland.

US couldn't replicate that scenario on the home coast?

It really happened...

23rd June 6th Panzer Div ran into both the KV-1 and 2 and barely got away.

One hundred of our tanks, about a third of them Panzer IV, occupied their positions against a counter-strike. Part of our forces met the enemy frontally, but most of them were on their flanks. They hit the steel monsters from the three sides, but the attempts to destroy them were unsuccessful. By the contrary, it was our tanks which were knocked out. After a long struggle with the Soviet giants, the German armoured units began to withdraw trying to avoid the annihilation.
…

One of the KVs got close to a panzer who was stuck in a muddy brook. Without hesitation, the black monster just roll over it, crushing it completely.

Then a German 105 mm howitzer arrived. Its commander, seeing the mass of enemy tanks, ordered continuous firing, but without causing any damage. One of the KVs got close, to within 100m of the howitzer, which fired again, and its shell hit the tank full on. The tanks stopped as if hit by lightning. “We made it!” thought the gunners. “Yes, we made it!!!”, shouted the commander of the position.


But the expresson in their faces suddenly changed when one of them shouted: “It’s moving again!!”. There was no doubt – the shiny caterpillar moved up to the howitzer and crushed it like a toy, then kept on moving as if nothing had happened.

later in August, 5 well sited KV-1's wiped out the better part of a panzer battlaion for zero loss (43:0). The Soviet commanders tank had been hit 103 times.

I am not saying it didn't happened. I am saying it didn't happened enough to establish a pattern and to make it a fact, but more of a sheer luck, that's why I mentioned Serbs in 1999.

Then I again point to Wavell vs the Italians, where it was very much equal tech. Or the Turkish Army in Korea in 1950...

Everybody has a bad day and incompetent commander at some point. Rommel was kicking Brits until Monty came in charge

Pancho Villa was hardly the first mexican military commander to raid the US, Al Queda hit us or tried to multiple times before 9-11, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, bombed the US and shelled California and by 1945 the country just wanted the war over...

Nobody wants a lasting war, but remember, people hate loosing.

Pretty much, since I dont need escorts between NA and Europe anymore sinc eth emerchant traffic is gone

May I remind you that US escorted many of those convoys. At least half the way.

No, many pages ago i said once i was close i'd come in slow to be able to scout with subs and planes.

Time is crucial, how much time you will need for cautiousness?

No Nantuckett first, if I have to hit Manhatten I will, but I think the threat alone will be enough. The financial district is a big area, actual long/short shells will likely still land in ana rea that is primarily business. I know I can kill upto 143 civilians becuase the US didn't go to war over than many with the Lusitania.

So you will stop after 142 civilian deaths?

won't invde, raid yes, for example the hydro-electric plant at Niagra Falls... easy target a few pounds of dynamite and Buffalo NY is in the dark., Locks of the Erie Canal, the aquaduct that feeds NYC its water...

Hmm... guerrilla warfare... Thought you want them to surrender FAST.

UK economy is already tanked with the war, the only chance to save it is too win...

If Wilson doesn't cave then the UK is doomed and its time for some revenge shelling...

Then tell me why would Wilson surrender?

I know I can kill upto 143 civilians becuase the US didn't go to war over than many with the Lusitania.

These people were knowingly traveling in a war zone, and were not at home on US soil. I don't beleive that is a valid comparison. A few children killed in their beds or at school would be different.