Estranged

Wow, what a bucketload of ********. Do you belive in this yourself or are you just talking out your ass?

Sameer

Why dont you spend more than one sentence and try to refute it then.

Sameer

Perhaps I should post European Union growth rates from your Central bank and what prominent European economists think about Europe?



but I would expect a bit more than one sentence from you before I bother to spend so much time.

I go to France at least once every year and I am quite fluent in French as well and well aware of French culture, so if you wish we can also do this in French, no worries.

You would be aware that leftist policies in France have led to low GDP growth rates and high unemployment or perhaps i am talking outof my mouth again.

Sameer

A few tit bits from a prominent European economics degree holder.

http://www.bis.org/review/r050602d.pdf

Over the past few years, despite tangible progress in terms of overall employment growth and activity
rates, a slowdown in the rise in hourly productivity in the euro area has been the main cause of the
gap in economic growth between the euro area and the other major economy in the industrially
advanced world, namely the United States. This, especially because over the same period of time the
United States has enjoyed a strong boost to its hourly productivity, thanks in particular to its efficient
use of new information and communication technology. Thus while growth in hourly productivity in the
1980s stood at 2.4% on average in the euro area and at 1.3% in the United States, that trend inverted
between 1996 and 2004, with an annual average in the euro area and in the United States of 1.3%
and of 2.5% respectively.
The lack of sufficient structural reform in Europe is, in my view, the main cause of the gap in economic
growth between Europe and the United States that we have seen over the past few years. If we are to
impart a fresh thrust to Europe’s growth potential and to help boost consumer and business
confidence, we need to work on the European economy’s most crucial underlying weaknesses and to
implement basic reforms. Allowing the labour market to work better with a view to boosting growth in
employment and productivity, completing the establishment of a large single market, and promoting
investment and innovation will be the best way of allowing the European economy to adapt to
international competition, to foster the development of businesses, and to accelerate economic growth
and the creation of lasting employment.






I hope that you are aware of what the structural weaknesses are in Europe, hint almost bankrupt France cannot afford to spend enough on other areas due to such leftist policies such as free univ education, health care etc etc etc, its an almost bankrupt state due to inadequate structural reforms in socialist like policies and labor reforms. As per Goldman Sachs only the BRIC economies and the US will influence the future of world economics but what do they know, its also horse manure.

Sameer

Since economics may not be your thing, its mine, would you like articles from Le Monde newspaper about what the native French population think about Islam or an english rendition?

You are aware of the big demographic debate they had in Marseille two years ago right?

Sameer

Alors je t'attends, c'est quand tu veux.

You would be well aware that France has tried to create its own version of French Islam for years now....

which part of my post came out of my butt?

Please do specify, i know that its getting cold in Norway already.

Also the French have grown quite secular over the years, the French are proud of the concept of Lacite(accent on the e)

Sameer

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/60/019.html

Documents menu
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The leftward political trend in Europe
By William Pomeroy, People's Weekly World, 21 June 1997
The stunning June 1 election victory of the alliance of left parties in France is part of a spreading political tendency in Europe that confounds the triumphalism chanted by capitalist apologists at the end of the cold war.

It is featured by the resurgence of Socialist and Communist parties and of radical parties ready to ally with them and shows the falsity of the claim that capitalism had been proved superior and that socialism and movements of a socialist nature are dead.

A French government headed by the Socialist Party with Communists in the cabinet of Prime Minister Lionel Jospin is the most striking such development but it is not an exception. There are governments headed by socialists or with socialists in ruling coalitions in eleven of the European Union countries (Portugal, Greece, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Ireland).

Even the right-wing Prime Minister Tony Blair in Britain calls himself a kind of socialist and his "New" Labor government is viewed as part of the leftward swing. Only Germany and Spain in the European Union have right-wing conservative governments with socialists in opposition, and the German election due in October 1998 is likely to put the Social Democratic Party in power.

Looking at these events in Europe with regard to the parties involved reveals, however, no common program or approach and little in the way of a coordinated effort to change radically the political scene in Europe. Variously, the Socialist Parties that play the leading role in the present trend and have long-abandoned a Marxist ideology or any commitment to a revolutionary transformation of society to socialism, embody differing shades of reformism.

At the congress of European Socialists held in Malme, Sweden, on June 6, Tony Blair and Lionel Jospin stood poles apart on policy although both their Labor and Socialist parties had scored sweeping electoral triumphs.

In the current tendency the best indication of the European mood being generated can be seen in the regaining of ground by the Communist parties, particularly the leap in parliamentary seats from 24 to 38 by the Communist Party of France; the continual increase in voting strength by the Refoundation Communist Party of Italy and its holding of the balance of power in the Italian parliament; and the increased representation won in recent elections by the Communists in Greece, Spain and Cyprus. This best refutes the claim that socialism and the appeal of socialism are dead.

What has moved European politics to the left, and won votes for the parties that have reacted to it, is the growing mass sentiment against the post-cold war drive by capitalism to restore the crudest forms of exploitation and greed profit-making while seeking to erase the social gains made by working people under the umbrella of a world socialist system.

The mass sentiment has been against widening of the great gap between an enriched few and the increasing 30 percent or more of populations in Europe living below the poverty level. It is against the existence of 18 million unemployed in the European Union and the holding down of wages for those with jobs. It is against the open assault on and destruction of the welfare state and its essential cushions for the poorly paid, the elderly and children in poverty conditions. It is against the privatization of the public sector and the resultant huge rise in the cost of services in order to enable enormous profits for the new owners.

In European Union countries a mounting wave of opposition has developed against the EU's Maastricht Treaty which is intended to centralize political, economic and social structures, to introduce a single EU currency by the turn of the century, and to concentrate economic policy in the hands of an EU central bank - all of which take democratic processes away from the people. It is to meet the criteria set for the joining of the single currency that welfare state expenditures have been eliminated or slashed to the bone: required is a reduction of budget deficits to no more than a 3 percent level, to be reached by severe cuts in public spending.

Preceding the victory of the left parties in France were massive demonstrations and strikes against the public spending cuts and wage restraint measures of the Chirac Gaullist government. Mass anger was increased by the Chirac move to call a premature election with the undisguised aim of getting his government re-elected so that it could claim a mandate to carry out much harsher cuts so it could squeeze beneath the 3 percent deficit limit.

The coming election in Germany has been preceded by huge protest strikes and demonstrations against the anti-welfare state austerity measures of the Kohl regime. If anything, the Social Democratic Party, deep in a leadership struggle between its right and left wings, is lagging behind German mass sentiment and if it comes out fighting to oust the Kohl regime, it will undoubtedly be through the pressures of that left-leaning sentiment.

Britain's Tony Blair, as exhibited in his speech to the Malmo Socialist Congress, is seeking to swing European socialists to his "New" Labor line. "We have to modernize or die!" he shouted melodramatically - meaning by "modernization" the scrapping of socialist policies and principles and the pursuit of class collaboration and market economies.

Blair says it was his modernization line that won the landslide victory in Britain but in truth it was due to mass rejection of the big business, anti-labor, anti- welfare state policies of the Thatcher-Major Tory government.

The British labor movement is resisting the efforts of Blair to take the Labor Party away from it, and British trade unions, the poor, the pensioners and unemployed call on the Labor government to respond to their needs and not to the profit demands of big business.

The French Socialist Party won with pledges to defend the welfare state, halt privatization of the public sector, create 700,000 jobs, reduce the work week and in crease the minimum wage.

The Communist Party, basing itself on the mass mood, calls for greater steps to the left, especially for reduction of taxes for the low-paid and heavier taxes for the rich. As in the past when socialists and Communists were together in government, a struggle over carrying out left policies is likely, and here too it is the action of mass feeling that will count.

Significantly, one of the results of the leftward trend now strengthened by the socialist-Communist and allied forces victory in France has been the move in the EU to expand what is called the "social chapter" of the Maastricht treaty, the set of semi-rights for workers and trade unions tacked on to give the treaty a trace of democracy. It is now proposed to add a provision on employment, guaranteeing employment rights to working people. The unemployment situation has been one of the principal issues raised in the strikes and demonstrations of the recent period. Jospin has declared that approval of the employment provision is a condition for France's joining of the EU's single currency.

This addition to the social chapter will be a cosmetic touch until it is implemented in a genuine action program that would be radical because it would strike at one of the supports of the exploitation structure of European Union capitalism, the maintenance of large-scale unemployment to hold down wages and worker organization.


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Sameer

Its much the same in 2005 of course unless you believe that there are no lefties in power and Europe is not on the socialist end of things in the world.

While what i posted is from the commies, it does not lie about leftist parties in power in France.

You would of course know that around 50% of France's GDP comes from the public sector.

Sameer

If you understand French, there is a survey done by a Christian group in France to proove my point about how religious the French are, I hope you speak French.

http://www.la-bible.net/article.php?refart=sondage

Les français et la Bible



Le sondage réalisé par la SOFRES pour le quotidien catholique, La Croix, en date du 23 octobre 2001, met en évidence que trois Français sur quatre ne lisent jamais la Bible, et que seulement la moitié des foyers en France possèdent une Bible. Cette situation traduit clairement une méconnaissance d'un héritage culturel qui a largement contribué à la construction des valeurs en Europe.

Sept questions pour comprendre quelle est la place de la Bible dans la vie des français.

Les français éprouvent toujours un peu de gène en voyant le président des Etats-Unis d'Amérique prêter serment sur la Bible ou en apprenant que le couple royal en Suède fait la promotion d'une nouvelle traduction de la Bible en suédois. D'une façon générale, dans notre France républicaine, la Bible est rarement mêlée à la vie publique. Est-ce un bien, est-ce un mal ? Si la liberté de conscience y gagne, il n'est pas certain que nous n'y perdions pas en éthique sociale. Le journal La Croix a fait réaliser par la Sofres un très intéressant sondage sur la relation « ombrageuse » que les français entretiennent avec la Bible. Dans ce pays qui allie une tradition catholique avec une laïcité militante, le sondage révèle que plus d'un français sur deux ne possède pas une bible chez lui.

1- Quelle est la place de la Bible ?

Très importante
Assez importante
Peu importante
Pas importante du tout
Ne se prononcent pas

Dans le patrimoine religieux de l’humanité
25 %
39 %
18 %
15 %
3 %

64 % 33 %
Dans le patrimoine culturel de l’humanité
20 %
42 %
20 %
15 %
3 %

62 % 35 %
Dans votre vie personnelle
11 %
18 %
26 %
15 %
1 %

29 % 70 %

Interrogés sur la pertinence du message biblique, une majorité de français estiment que les enseignements de la Bible n'ont plus d'actualité et que son message ne répond plus aux préoccupations de nos contemporains.
Le corollaire de ce jugement négatif à propos de la Bible, c'est que les français ne se réfèrent pas à elle pour les choix qui concernent leur vie personnelle. 70 % d'entre eux estiment que la Bible tient une place peu importante ou pas importante du tout pour eux. Ils ne nient pas l'importance de la Bible dans le patrimoine de l'humanité (c'est le titre de la grande exposition de l'Alliance biblique), mais tout se passe comme si le message biblique ne les concernait pas.

2- Vous personnellement, diriez-vous que la Bible permet avant tout de...?
(Réponse donnée à l'aide d'une liste)

Connaître l'histoire des origines du christianisme et du judaïsme 43 %
Mieux connaître les aspects religieux de notre culture 31 %
Connaître la Parole de Dieu 27 %
Comprendre le sens de sa vie 25 %
Elle ne sert à rien 8 %
Ne se prononcent pas 6 %

De façon assez paradoxale, même si la Bible ne tient pas beaucoup de place dans leur vie, une proportion significative de français estime que la Bible permet de connaître la Parole de Dieu (27 %) ou de comprendre le sens de sa vie (25%). Ces chiffres s'expliquent par le fait que les personnes interrogées avaient droit à plusieurs réponse, mais on retrouve là un phénomène classique dans les sondages : le décalage entre l'idéal et la réalité de la pratique. (Interrogés sur le nombre d'enfants qu'ils souhaiteraient idéalement, les français donnent des réponses bien supérieures à leur fécondité réelle.)

3- Et pour vous la Bible c'est :

Un livre dépassé, en décalage avec le monde moderne
54 %

Un livre dont les enseignements sont toujours actuels
38 %

Ne se prononcent pas
8 %


Dès lors que l'on se penche sur la réalité de la lecture de la Bible en interrogeant sur la fréquence de cette lecture, le résultat est consternant : 72 % ne lisent jamais la Bible et seuls 8% de la population française la lit au moins une fois par mois.

4- Possédez-vous une bible dans votre foyer ?

Oui 42 %
Non 58 %




5- Vous personnellement, lisez-vous la Bible ?

Ensemble des français
Possesseurs d’une Bible

Jamais
72 %
44 %

Moins d’une fois par mois
20 %
38 %

Au moins une fois par mois
4 %
9 %

Au moins une fois par semaine
2 %
5 %

Tous les jours ou presque
2 %
4 %


Un dernier chiffre très instructif, 77 % des personnes interrogées déclarent lire la Bible seule et non en Eglise ou en groupe, ce qui confirme d'une part la perte d'audience des Eglises et qui signifie que les lecteurs de la Bible ne sont plus forcément accompagnés et guidés dans leur lecture, mais le plus souvent renvoyés à eux mêmes et à leur connaissance souvent approximative du contexte biblique.
La mission de l'Alliance biblique repose sur la conviction que la Bible contient une parole pertinente adressée par Dieu à l'homme et à la femme d'aujourd'hui. Au regard de ces chiffres assez alarmants, comment ne pas redoubler d'effort pour inverser ces tendances ? Favoriser les actions de diffusion des Ecritures dans notre pays, montrer que le message de la Bible n'a rien de démodé, donner à ceux qui veulent se lancer dans une lecture personnelle de la Bible des outils pédagogiques pour une lecture intelligente, encourager une pratique régulière de la lecture de la Bible parmi les chrétiens, autant d'objectifs que l'Alliance biblique poursuit inlassablement. Des objectifs qui réclament aujourd'hui une forte mobilisation de toutes les Eglises. Il s'agit non seulement de proclamer, mais aussi de vivre aujourd'hui que la Parole de Dieu est la lumière du monde.

6- Lorsque vous lisez la Bible, vous êtes … ? (question posée aux seuls lecteurs de la Bible, plusieurs réponses admises)

Seul
77 %

Dans un lieu de culte
24 %

Dans un groupe ou une communauté
14 %

En famille
10%

Ne se prononcent pas
1 %


7- Quels sont les personnages de la Bible que vous connaissez, ne serait-ce que de nom ? (question ouverte, réponses non suggérées)

Jésus
77 %

Moïse
24 %

Pierre
16 %

Joseph
16 %

Jean
16 %

Marie
14 %

Paul
14 %

Judas
14 %

Abraham
10 %

Matthieu
10 %

dalem

The facts on the books seem to support that Muslims don't "like Europe" as much as they "like to move out of whatever crap hole they were living in before". A commonality among immigrants everywhere to be sure, but Europe has been largely unsuccessful in helping Muslims learn to like Europe in any way, shape, or form.

Is that Europe's fault? Is it "the Muslims" fault? I don't really know.

But I do know that we're about five minutes away from someone explaining how it is America's fault.

-dale

Sameer

Its a bit of both.

You see in Europe any of the minority grups, especially in France, since this is the Frech topic, have come illegally from Algeria, they have low skills and cannot adapt to the French way of life. In the US or Canada, immigrants who qualify get in for the most part, (well in the US think about the illegal Latino community and how backwards they are compared to other groups in terms of per capita incomes)

Europe is looking for immigrants because of low birth rates, it wants to keep European culture and it wants immigrants to pay taxes because the state needs tax money for the huge old population to retire soon but alas immigration policy in the 80s has failed and socialist policies have caused huge unemployment and low job creation.

Immigration should be viewed as a tool to help a country not hurt it, and illegal immigration or immigrants with low skills set which are not needed do not help the country.

Sameer

you wonder though, most of the conservative Muslims love immigrating out, you would think that the Islamic economic system stipulated in the Koran would equate to their countries being richer.

Sameer

Racism is prevelant in France and a lot of it comes from taking the subway in Paris and other big cities when you see the Algerian walking into the train and walking like some idiot rapper and showing his underwear with the low waisted jeans. A lot of it comes from the fact that the minority North African community have not been able to intergrate but there is a genuine arrogance in France about French culture. Everyone who has been to France or studied French history from what they did in Syria etc to today knows that.

The riots are about unemployment. 50% of the North African community is unemployed and have low skills set.

Education is free in France even at the university level but let me tell you how it stinks.

Since the state cannot afford to educate everyone at the university level, they make the system too hard and too theoretical, most people fail out and hence are dropped from the system. The goal of teachers is to fail you so that class sizes get smaller as the years go by in your degree.

The average unemployment rate in France is already high at 10% or so and i just told you about the North African unemployment rate.

This and a lack of qualified immigrants due to a bad immigration policy in the past contributes to a gap and a lack of intergration that causes friction in modern day France.

Most North Africans live in the bans lieux in shabby high rise buildings where Islamic fundamentalist has found a nest. In fact honour killings etc are not unheard of and the pople seldom report it to the police and in any event many are illegals and so when an illegal dies, noone really knows about it until they see the body floating in a river and say "hmm where the heck did this dead one come from"

Leader

Nope. It's not even close

__________________

astralis

leader,

find out who said this quote.

"We will probably need a major concentration of forces in the Middle East over a long period of time. When we have economic problems, it's been caused by disruptions in our oil supply. If we have a force in Iraq, there will be no disruption in oil supplies."

and

“In particular, removing the regime of Saddam Hussein ... would be a tremendous step toward reducing Saudi leverage. Bringing Iraqi oil fully into world markets would improve energy economics. From a military and strategic perspective, Iraq is more important than Saudi Arabia.”

in case you don't know, here's the full text.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/saudi-052302.htm

i'm not a subscriber to the weekly standard, thus i have no access to their archives. but i do read what they put out on their website, and plus, they were quite popular in washingon circa 2003, so it wasn't hard to pick up on what they were saying.

oh yes,

i guess you're not a big fan of the enlightenment, classical music, renaissance culture, contributions to philosophy, writing, etc etc etc. give me a break, have you lived and worked in europe, leader? aw hell, you don't even need to live in europe to appreciate european culture. it's sorta sad when the only thing that comes to your mind when you think of european culture are "ideologies that don't past muster in the real world".

giggs, bulgaroctonus,

the comment was most certainly bigoted, then. all this talk of "do not like to integrate", you charge that it is because muslims do not want to integrate with europe. have you considered the policies that the governments of europe have against muslims/muslim immigrants? as dalem and sameer have mentioned, both sides are culpable in this matter.

not every muslim wants to live in a ghetto. not every muslim is uneducated. not every muslim is a terrorist. not every muslim is poor and wants to see the destruction of the west. you discount the millions of peaceful muslims in the world that get along just fine with their european neighbors, pay their (high) taxes, and live the usually professional life of an educated, middle-class european.