Tinkertoys

M21, you are a US military trained sniper, most gun owners are not, sure, many weapons are available, but how well trained is the average gun owner? Not very. Remember, many vets from Korea and Vietnam and WWII were trained in outdated tactics, but, they might learn quickly. Many vets simply have not trained lately enough, although the ones I know never seem to lose their edge. However, against an army capable of wiping out the United States military, they would be swept aside.

-Tink

Anon

"We police, M21, are trained to stop crimes, many of us are fantastic s*******, but we are not trained nor equipped to fight a war."

And i assume you think that the typical VC dirt farmer was? How about the typical Iraqi dirt farmer?

US Cops have 10x the training of either, and many have access to military grade weaponry and body armor. A SWAT team operating in an insurgency commando role would be highly effective.

Anon

"M21, you are a US military trained sniper, most gun owners are not, sure, many weapons are available, but how well trained is the average gun owner?"

The average hunter can blast a stationary deer at a couple hundred yards, that's plenty good enough. Especially if the enemy is using AKs.

"Remember, many vets from Korea and Vietnam and WWII were trained in outdated tactics, but, they might learn quickly."

Tactics aren't so important for insurgency operations initially. What is far more important is the will to fight and sacrifice for the cause. Given time in the field any human being will figure out what works and what doesn't. Just like the Iraqis have, just like the VC did, just like the Afghan Muj did. And any friggin' clown can plant an IED.

"Many vets simply have not trained lately enough, although the ones I know never seem to lose their edge."

Like riding a bicycle.

"However, against an army capable of wiping out the United States military, they would be swept aside."

Swept aside from where? That's the problem...the bad guys don't know who they're fighting. Which is the whole damned point behind an insurgency.

Or have you forgot that most basic tenet of guerilla warfare?

And as a direct counter to that argument, the US crushed the Iraqi military, and yet two years later despite a MASSIVE numerical and technological advantadge by US forces, the Iraqi insurgency still survives.

And the same was true in Afghanistan, and Vietnam, and even in our own revolution.

TopHatter

Let's go back to the beginning of this invasion. The US military has not been wiped out. How does your average gun-owning civ fit in? Did they help or hinder the US military?

__________________
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Tinkertoys

This is true, but a SWAT team cannot fight tanks, simple as that, without anti-armor weapons. Besides, most cops are not SWAT, I was Narcotics, completely different from warfare. Many others are simply patrol officers, too lightly armed to deal with an invasion in the early stages. However, I do see your point, for the most part.

-Tink

Anon

"Did they help or hinder the US military?"

They can do nothing but help.

Tinkertoys

The issue with this debate is what most of us are suggesting, amounts to hijacking old tanks and anti-tank weapons to use, most cannot use them. In response to the vets, while true that it is like riding a bicycle, the finely tuned warrior is faded without practice, exactly the reason elite units practice like all else.

-Tink

Anon

"This is true, but a SWAT team cannot fight tanks, simple as that, without anti-armor weapons."

You are wrong, simple as that. You think the crews never come out? The whole idea is to NOT be fighting them when they want, on their terms, but to ambush when YOU want, on YOUR terms. And it would be wise to avoid tanks and first line troops altogether. Focus on the supply lines and support troops. SWAT troops would slaughter REMFs like sheep.

"Besides, most cops are not SWAT, I was Narcotics, completely different from warfare."

Not all that different than an insurgency. As you walk down the street and see that enemy troop standing on the corner on guard lighting a cigarette, you walk past, and when he's not looking, pull out your sig and blow his fuccking head off. Then you run like hell.

That's happened to some of our guys in Iraq.

Even if they get you, you already accounted for your one enemy killed. You can go to your maker knowing you had an impact.

"Many others are simply patrol officers, too lightly armed to deal with an invasion in the early stages. However, I do see your point, for the most part."

Forget the invasion part. Leave that to the US troops. An insurgent becomes effective after he's in enemy occupied territory.

Blow up rail lines. Cut telephone lines. Set roadside bombs. Snipe enemy supply personnel on convoy duty, etc, etc, etc.

Anon

"The issue with this debate is what most of us are suggesting, amounts to hijacking old tanks and anti-tank weapons to use, most cannot use them. In response to the vets, while true that it is like riding a bicycle, the finely tuned warrior is faded without practice, exactly the reason elite units practice like all else."

Most basic AT weapons are extremely simple to use. Look at the M-72 and RPG for instance. A monkey can use either.

Tinkertoys

What SWAT team is going to sit waiting for a tank crew to come out? Remember, the enemy has snipers, too. As far as the run-by shooting of a guy on a corner, I would much rather go down firing an entire magazine of 9mm ammunition into a throng of enemy troops at chest level and hope some die. Although, the run like hell part does sound good. Why not blow his head off, run like hell, and lead the following soldiers into an ambush?

-Tink

Anon

And i've got news for everyone here.

As per US Code Section 311.

"Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are commissioned officers of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-- (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

As can clearly be seen, you are expected to fight. We all are. We ARE the militia.

Tinkertoys

Holy crap, how old is that and where did you get it? Is that a new act? I am not current on legal issues.

-Tink

Anon

"What SWAT team is going to sit waiting for a tank crew to come out?"

The same SWAT team that sits for hours waiting for a go order to take down a crack house. I got news for you, most military CPs are not as well defended as the typical drug house is, and neither are most supply convoys. Forget tanks, you should avoid those whenever possible. Focus on rear echelon troops, who possess far less training, and much less powerful weaponry.

"Remember, the enemy has snipers, too."

No one said war or insurrection is safe.

"As far as the run-by shooting of a guy on a corner, I would much rather go down firing an entire magazine of 9mm ammunition into a throng of enemy troops at chest level and hope some die."

Works for me. However, if you use the more sneaky approach, you might just live to fight another day, and you are assured at least one kill.

"Although, the run like hell part does sound good. Why not blow his head off, run like hell, and lead the following soldiers into an ambush?"

Right into your departments waiting SWAT team.

Starting to see how this works?

Anon

"Holy crap, how old is that and where did you get it? Is that a new act? I am not current on legal issues."

That is long standing and Supreme court affirmed US law.

Tinkertoys

Somewhat, you have to remember, I was only trained in countering gang ambushes, not setting them up. Seems like a good plan, though. How does a NCO think of all this? Believe me, I know how drug houses are defended, all the deals are done by a, for lack of a better word, lieutenant, so that the head honcho does not get killed. Lots of people with Chinese made Ak-47 copies and Uzi type weapons. Not fun.
-Tink