troung

"British employment of Snipers during the Revolutionary war was actually quite limited. One company was formed, but it was disbanded after it's leader was killed by a US Sniper, i believe at the Battle of Brandywine Creek. I wrote an article about it, should be in the historical discussions archives."

Under Fergason (spelling?). His unit had actually been disbanned before his death and the soldiers he led into combat on the day he died were regular musket equipped soldiers and not snipers with his speical rifle.

dalem

In fact, Washington barely kept the army together, and a fairly accurate summation of the Continental Army's record is that "they lost every battle but the last one".

A wonderful and educational book on Washington and the period is Bobrick's "Angel in the Whirlwind". Fascinating stuff.

-dale

troung

"Actually Chris, it would be the very act of trying to utilize conventional heavy weapons systems(artillery, etc) that would likely get you killed in the first place. Anything bigger than an 81mm mortar or 14.5mm machine gun would be best avoided, heavy weapons simply draw too much attention."

But guerillas do need hevay weapons. Sniping at people will not win a war. The Mujahideen were using tanks and towed artillery by the end of the war and early in the war were already using 82mm mortars and RRs along with DShK-38s.

The MNLF in the Philippines can build RPG-2 rockets in jungle workshops I wonder what the uSA could do

"Head up into one of the many mountain chains, swamps or forests where mech troops can't follow, and use it as a base of operations. Live off the land.
In an urban setting, any of the smashed US cities along the invasion route would be perfect for insurgency operations. If you live in the border regions, use the borders to maximum advantadge(unless Mexico and Canada were also invaded, in which case the insurgency is even larger and more difficult to pin down because of the utterly vast land mass of N.America and the massive N.American population)."

Living off the land is really next to impossible to do and keep a field force able to fight. Guerillas find food with the locals. They either give it because they like the cause, sell it to you, or you take it at gun point.

"All the ex Rangers, ex SEALs, ex Green Berets, ex blah, blah, blah would get more than one enemy a piece, i assure you. If you think Iraqis make good IEDs, you should see some of the gadgets that SpecOps type troops know how to make. Let alone EOD and Engineer types."

I don't know about one apiece.

If these "men from mars" (come on who could really invade the USA ) beat us that bloody to take charge they would have to have damn good soldiers.

"Killing American collaborators would be even easier, a lot more personally rewarding, and almost as effective as killing enemy troops."

There would be scores of collaborators. Just the way things are...

But really I could not see somebody taking over the USA, maybe a Hannibal running around the nation burning stuff but unable to give a death blow or even like the Japense controling the coast of China but the USA is to big, LOCs would be too long and there would be to many people to control. Not that the people on the coasts are weaker willed then the people inland but the LOCs would be to long and easy to take out supply units.

And imagine the losses in taking the big cities like DC, NYC, LA and such on the coasts. And at that those cities would look like Herat as no doubt people would come back to fight for the ruins (which Ismail Khan did for years againist the USSR).

Anon

"and a fairly accurate summation of the Continental Army's record is that "they lost every battle but the last one""

That's actually far from the case.

troung

"If you are between 17-45, male, and of sound body, you are REQUIRED to fight, whether you want to or not. I(or any US partisan in the field who is a member of the unorganized militia), as an active participant in that fight, and as a member of the unorganized militia, will compell you to fulfill your duty under US law even if it means killing you in the process. If we are invaded by a foriegn power- let alone a genocidal foriegn power, as you suggest- there will be very little tolerance for pacifism among the members of the unorganized militia. The best way to 'protect your family' will be to drive the enemy off our land so that we may all again be free. So that our children need not grow up under the yoke of foriegn tyranny."

Actually I doubt everyone aged 17-45 would fight in fact I doubt many would ACTIVELY fight (pick up a gun and shoot). Most people would live life as normal as possible and most of those would try and funnel support at least at first.

And could you show where in the law one has to pick up a gun to fight a forgien invader after we have been taken over . I think about the only thing would be to draft everyone but after the government surrenders as would the army they would more then likely go home or be interned. So the law goes off the books then when the government enters the dustbin of history.

And we would not want groups of guys running around with guns to peoples heads demanding they fight or a backlash againist the guerilla would hit. Excesses by guerillas often turn people off towards them. And of course a lot of these guerillas would not be the most savory of people. Hell in no time there would be American units formed to fight the guerillas (do I smell civil war).

----

But I could not see anything past a Hannibal breaking the armies we send out yet unable to win the war and get us to surrender. Move the capital once or twice and this army takes losses based on the armies we make and send out.

Looking at my map we are a bigger then Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Afghanistan and Iraq put together.

Anon

"But guerillas do need hevay weapons."

Not until the final stages.

"Sniping at people will not win a war."

That depends who you snipe.

"The Mujahideen were using tanks and towed artillery by the end of the war"

Once the Soviets pulled out.

"and early in the war were already using 82mm mortars and RRs along with DShK-38s."

I said we'd want to use 81mm mortars and HMGs...but nothing bigger initially.

"The MNLF in the Philippines can build RPG-2 rockets in jungle workshops I wonder what the uSA could do"

Yep.

"Living off the land is really next to impossible to do and keep a field force able to fight."

Initially it will be a bunch of poorly organized individuals that will launch the insurgency. Individuals are completely capable of living off the land, whereas larger organized groups will find it much harder. Of course, there is nothing to stop you from planting food producing plants such as apple trees, small crops, whatever. The US is blessed with excellent top soil in most cases.

"Guerillas find food with the locals. They either give it because they like the cause, sell it to you, or you take it at gun point."

Of course.

"I don't know about<specops getting one insurgent> apiece."

I do.

"If these "men from mars" (come on who could really invade the USA ) beat us that bloody to take charge they would have to have damn good soldiers."

Don't change the fact that SEALs, G.Berets, etc, are excellent practicioners of unconventional warfare.

"Killing American collaborators would be even easier, a lot more personally rewarding, and almost as effective as killing enemy troops."

"There would be scores of collaborators. Just the way things are..."

A busy insurgent is a happy insurgent.

troung

"Not until the final stages."

Well by about the middle.

"I said we'd want to use 81mm mortars and HMGs...but nothing bigger initially."

Sorry didn't read you right

"Once the Soviets pulled out."

Actually while they were there. During the battle for Zhwar (spelling) the Mujahideen employed tanks (T-54s) and artillery in the defense of the base. And they daily shelled and rocketed Soviet bases.

"Initially it will be a bunch of poorly organized individuals that will launch the insurgency. Individuals are completely capable of living off the land, whereas larger organized groups will find it much harder. Of course, there is nothing to stop you from planting food producing plants such as apple trees, small crops, whatever. The US is blessed with excellent top soil in most cases"

To operate in groups big enough to shoot up real enemy targets you need a steady source of food year round. It becomes the occupiers job to cut off that food by shifting the population (Timor, Malaysia) or simply killing all the fields (Afghanistan).

"A busy insurgent is a happy insurgent."

That's what creeps me out. The type of people who would be doing this stuff and the fact that they will really not be watched so to say. Things like this do have habits of having dregs show up to take advantage of things, that hurts a cause.

Anon

"To operate in groups big enough to shoot up real enemy targets you need a steady source of food year round. It becomes the occupiers job to cut off that food by shifting the population (Timor, Malaysia) or simply killing all the fields (Afghanistan)."

That would be a HUGE task in America, and still wouldn't stop sympathetic or fearful non-combatants from supplying the insurgents with all manners of supplies, from food to batteries, radios, etc.

"That's what creeps me out. The type of people who would be doing this stuff and the fact that they will really not be watched so to say. Things like this do have habits of having dregs show up to take advantage of things, that hurts a cause."

It's all part of the game though.

Can't be avoided.

troung

"That would be a HUGE task in America, and still wouldn't stop sympathetic or fearful non-combatants from supplying the insurgents with all manners of supplies, from food to batteries, radios, etc."

It would be a MASSIVE task. But of course we would have to assume this force was pretty damn big and had big tank, artillery and airpower support.

"It's all part of the game though. Can't be avoided."

That's a big problem actually. It doesn't take too many goond showing up and empressing people into service and their kids, stealing food and supplies and of course raping (yes that would happen) to allow the occupier a willing supply of men to form counter guerilla units.

After the government gives up then the past laws are done and new ones pop up. Now imagine trying to feed your family (ok put yourself in someone elses shoes) and you work to survive (if you have to mowing lawns for the occupiers) and have guerillas show up and take food and supplies from you and march your kids of into the woods to be porters or soldiers. I doubt that hypothetical person would be inclined to support the guerillas. And don't get me started on guerilla lunatic puppet "courts". Abuses happen among well meaning people, and it turns people againist them. Now multiply that by a few thousand (well more).Then it would start looking less and less like a war to get rid of the invadors and more and more like a civil war.

History has shown that time and time again. The infamous "death squads" in East Timor were formed of locals led by SF members, Vietnam formed a proxy army in Cambodia, the Pathet Lao got Hmong units to fight other Hmong, Japan formed local units in SE Asia and China, Russia formed a proxy army in Afghanistan. Now the last couple forced people to join but the Indonesians actually got volunteers to join and kill the guerillas and of course civies. And even in the DRA the units did start to get better and better as time went on and became very willing to kill the Muj. The proxy force in Cambodia actually crushed the Khmer Rouge after Vietnam left.

If the OPFOR has a brain they would not try and be to heavy handed. Nerve gassing people like that one guy suggested is about the dumbest way to do things. Shooting random people also is dumb. The average person just tries to live a normal life and will keep trying to do so as long as the occupier is not heavy handed and does not get in the way of their life. Yet that same person history has shown will strike out againist the people getting in the way, if you are the occupier you don't want to be the one in the way.

You have to imagine that our ranks would be thined out by then, the economy would be bad and food would be short. The trick is to for the OPFOR to try and provide food, medical supplies and jobs. Tired populations are all the less likely to try a massive guerilla war (Japan, Germany). Give the locals services and it might turn into a hard sell to convince much of the population to pick up a gun and fight.

Tinkertoys

Too many rednecks who do not want to give up RPK's. The drug stuff is not gonna happen on my watch, No, Sir Bob.

-Tink

Julie

I'm glad you are in Chicago....cowboy.

dalem

They lost many of the pitched battles. It's impossible to sum up any war with a pithy phrase, admittedly, but I like to err on the side of caution. And by the end they were on relatively equal footing with the British troops.

-dale

ChrisF202

By 1781 a good amount of the Continental Army was just as well equiped and armed as the British. And dont forget they had Baron Steuben training them.

Tinkertoys

I'm glad I am too, we have gun control.

-Tink

BasilKumar

More people are killed by AIDS than guns. How about penis control?