Officer of Engineers

You're uninformed about alot of the problems. Here are the arguements, start on this page about half way through and go through about 3-4 pages to get the full extent of the arguements. It's not as simple as you point it out to be.

Does anyone disagree that the US is the most Powerful nation on Earth?

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Chimo

lemontree

That is part of unit management training programmes during courses of instruction.
Command responsibilities are different and have their own stress levels. The rifle company/bn CP is not any ivory tower.
You are confusing matters by including the bridge staff. As I has stated all officers till bn level face direct combat.
An exception and not the norm.
Wars of today are not the 'meat grinders' of WW1. Arty shelling is one thing no one gets use to. Those WW1 troops were subjected to the kind of shelling no one has seen again in later wars.
The US army studies are correct. In fact a lot of my self study on unit management included books by US army officers, and I lear'nt tons from it.
I never denied that, only that fact that its is not such a big issue if proper unit management is done.
"liberal"???...
- That is because our units do not have permanent bases like the US army. Our units are not affiliated to any particular formation unlike the US army, your soldiers families are based there, after their one year tour of duty they go back to their base. Our soldiers (majority of them) have their families in their native villages/towns. The families live with them only if the unit is in a non-combat location, and if they are luck to get adiquate family accomodation.
- All Indian armed forces personnel get 2 months annual leave and 28 days casual leave, for officers casual leave is 20 days. Gurkha units get annual leave for 3 months (ranks only not officers).
- Your troops may get a week end off in a peace location. That is yet unheard of in our army.
- Your soldier (mind you not officer)in a combat area may use the CO's official jeep/vehicle, here it is sacrilage. This was in WW2 in burma, but things may have changed in the US units now.
antelope don't call others ignorant if you are not aware of facts yourself. Our units serve in combats areas of 3 yrs, there in no 'one yr rotation', except in Siachin Glacier. The whole units leaves the area once the tenure is complete.
- Proper unit management is required to reduce stress levels.
- The fact that large number of our troops are not killed and more terrorists are, speaks for itself.
- You have no idea of what large scale operations in COIN means.

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Cheers!...on the rocks!!

lemontree

Thanks for the back up sir.

lemontree

Sniper,
We use their equipment that is all. The Indian army/navy and airforce follow the British military structure and traditions. (There is nothing wrong in sticking to and adopting systems that work).
Many are not aware but the Royal Navy tradition of saluting at the quarter deck (location on the ship where Lord Nelson got killed) was followed in the Indian navy till a 2000/01 when some restructing was done.
But the Army and Air force stick to old systems and links. Most changes in Indian armed forces are based on studies of British and US armed forces.

Ray

Antelope,

While I don't wish to say how many wars I have undergone or COIN operations, let use one of my experience where my troops and I were under shelling and fire for over one year at a stretch.

Before I address Battle Fatigue, may I ask you if there is any study on environmental fatigue e.g. locked up in a post with 10 men for 6 months totally isolated from the world, high up at 17,000 feet and with one corpse under the snow since no helicopter can land because of permanent soft snow and neither can the corpse be winched, since the enemy is just 500 yards away with AD missiles? No medical aid can come to you either and only a telephonic diagnosis is possible. Or sending medicines through local dogs who somehow know what is expected of them!

Battle Fatigue. My experience in the wars, CI and in the above mentioned environment where we were under daily shelling and firing for one year plus I presume it would be adequate a time spent to understand the various aspects of battle fatigue and stress. BTW the Indian Army is 24 hours active in CI Operations. Fortunately, none of my men graduated through your examples of battle fatigue, so much so that they totally disregraded their training. True, the innovatated but rarely did they violate.

As far as shelling goes, one gets used to understand where the shell shall land. Not the precise spot but whether it will be near the person or not. Nonetheless, all would take cover. Life is precious to all, excepting Rambo.

I found waiting for action was the most harrowing of experience. It tired one immensely. In fact, once the action started, it was such a relief! The wait is the worst form of fatigue I have experienced and the men are most fidgety then.

Once in the thick of it when the shells are falling and the eney firing is on, the tension that is sapping vanishes, though the fear of being hit comes. This too seems to go into the background since there comes an overwhelming desire to close in fast and get the enemy and stop his fire because that is the only way to stop the show.

In the Indian Army there are all these theoretical classes of battle fatigue, comabt isolation and stuff, but nothing to beat real experience. Further, to toughen up all to stress, we have weekly night training which goes into the next day. Thereafter, after a wash (or what we say, **** shave and shampoo) the next day goes on without a break. After every training cycle, we have long exercises practising all the ops of war and there is no difference between night and day. In fact,by day one has to lie doggo and helicopters are sent to check on any stray movement. In the exercises it is also built in when the B echelon vehicle (carrying hot food under the cover of darkness) gets 'ambushed' or 'shelled'. So, no food! That's not for that night alone, but for the whole of the next day. It is to ensure that men have 'shakarpara' ( a sweet made of flour) or the horrible Compo rations. One of my tougher Commanders did it for two nights consecutive and then we had to go into a simulated attack! We also train to march 40 kms with battle loads and then carry out a simulated attack and then firing at the long range!

I assure you that Indo Pakistan Wars are ferocious as they can be. You just have to see a cricket match under ideal conditions and then visualise what it would be in real war! In fact, all this confidence Building Measure is taking away the sheen from the excellent rivalry we have!

Let me assure you that battle fatigue will be experienced by all ranks. While a trooper has to obey orders, an officer has to see that the plan succeeds and he doesn't let the battalion or his men down, apart from the fatigue of battle fears. Therefore, the stress level of officers is more than enlisted men.

Our officers lead the men into battle and if checked statistically the officers killed or wounded would be more in percentages than that of the troops. Lt Cols also have been known to lead the assault. I have personally as a Brigadier been in the front and in CI I have been in the front during an Operation just to 'have the feel'. In our Army, these things matter and one cannot avoid it. Even though my General cursed me, he had to equal me and so in the next ops, he too went forward.

There are cases of combat stress. But it is mostly from para military forces and mostly those who have led comfortable lives otherwise. These case are far and between.

We have no R&R. We are not flown into Bangkok We get out leave. That too not when we want, but when it is feasible for the unit. We have to travel by train and more often than not, we don't get reservation for our berth. It is an ordeal to get a reservation, even after boarding the train. Unlike in the US, our leaves are no pleasure. We, and more so, the troops have to look after all the stuff that will ensure a smoother life for the family for the ensuing year, like repair to the house damaged during the monsoon, get the court cases moving, getting the various bureaucratic hassles that Indian life has, get folks married and so on and so forth. Remember, we still have joint families.

A unit's tenure in the field is three years minimum. I have done a four year tenure too and then go to a one horse town as a peace tenure! Our childrens' education suffers, because one horse towns don't have good school. So, they go to boarding schools or get educated in a one horse school! In fact, we don't even come to know our children well because their holidays may not coincide with our leave!

Please understand because the Army has been in combat conditions from 1947 to date and in CI operations for heaven knows how many years, we have honed our skills, techniques and things like that. Our casualties are there, but it is quite minimal if one equates it with the combat instances that they face.

Most of the troopers don't get family accomodation since there is a quota. Officers have to hang around one year before they get accomodation owing to shortage. And note, the peace tenure is only two years!

I have found that in big and prolonged operations the casualties (kiled and wounded) are less than in small and intensive actions like CI.

Julie

I seriously doubt Roadkill made up that story about being in combat with women, and he had a right to give his opinion about his experiences.

Ya know, as horrible as things went in this Iraq war, it's upbeat and issues are highlighted here when positive things come out of that situation in Iraq, because the odds have been so against them.

On the other hand, when something positive happens as to the involvement of women, it is downplayed, and excuses made like it is a negative event.

The bad attitude came from Roadkill when his facts didn't fit someone's theories here, then it just snowballed from there.

I would just like to call attention to that kind of "politicing" here. It's not fair, it's narrowminded, and very unwelcoming.

Officer of Engineers

Maybe so but it does not give him the right to dismissed our vastly more ample experiences.

I rather not get into a pissing contest of who has seen what. Frankly, as horrible as what he had experienced, we had it worst. Just read the Brigadier's (Ray's) post above.

I challenge you to state where we/I downplay his experiences and made it into a negative event. There are hundreds of stories involving women that I can come up with from WWII partisans to Vietnam where the women slug it out with the men but it does not qualify them to fit the role of the modern military that we have been at pains to explain. If putting things into perspective is downplaying the events, so is ignoring the needs of the modern infanteer. In fact, Roadkill is not even qualified to be in the infantry which shows how little he knows of infantry demands, let alone being qualified to speak about women in that role.

The bad attitude was there to begin with. His 1st comments were insults. I, in fact, let things slide and he responded with venom. Do not shift blame and responsibility was his to begin with. Frankly, if you're afraid to have your opinions challenged, then you should not be posting.

I'm not afraid of contraversy. I'm not afraid of being called wrong. I'm not afraid of stating upfront that you are wrong. I do not visit forums where everybody agree to be nice to each other. All I ask is that you be pilote about disagreeing. My points are valid. Whatever points he had were buried under his ignorance.

lemontree

Julie,
No decent soldier would deny recognition or respect to a woman (or for that matter male) combatant who deserves it. It is just that Pvt. Jessica Lynch was a poor example for valour, when there are more praiseworthy women in uniform. IMO the only medal she deserved was a 'war wound' medal, decorating her with 3 gallantry awards (as mentioned in this thread) for "valour" is absurd and takes away the sheen and dignity associated with such awards. If the top brass wanted to award her, a single medal would have sufficed, giving her 3 medals is going a bit over the top.
Roadkill was just a poor excuse of a soldier, who lacked basic military etiquitte. I wonder how he survived as a pvt contractor.

Anon

"Woman not in combat in Panama, what are you smoking? I knew a half of dozen!"

find me a link describing any combat action a woman participated in Panama, cause i couldn't find one, and i looked last night for about 2 hours.

"Excuse me if getting ambushed as MPs, having a guy you know get killed, & only a 20 second episode as a first combat experience is not good enough. The other fighting wasn't some long drawn out war movie. So maybe I'm not a green beret & was only green, oh well. Being an MP typically isn't frontline stuff, so what? The enemy doesn't take a survey before opening up. I served with women being fired upon, they did just fine. Far as not recognizing this Officer of Engineers as a "better military MAN" (note, I didn't say woman), if he is such a leader, he should be able to handle a grunt loser like me. I was 21 years old, 3 years removed from high school on the GI-Bill, I really never cared about officers anyhow, I just wanted to get back home alive. Sniperman, please excuse me if I don't suck OOE off."

So your flat statement 'women can fight as well as men and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot'(paraphrase) is based on a whole 20 seconds of actual combat huh?

Wow, that's really something skippy.

And you said you were an MP. If you were an MP, you were no grunt. Totally different animals, which anyone in the military knows. I'm starting to wonder if you were even a cook.

"Leaders don't ask for respect, it's something you earn."

No, it's something you give them whether they deserve it or not, or they courts-martial your silly belligerent asss. You respect the rank whether you respect the man or not.

"Now, to both Sniperman & OOE, come to St. Louis, I know a couple of woman that will beat your ass in hand to hand combat. Oh, that's "SIR" to you."

Well if i knew you two years ago when i was out there i'd have been happy to kick the snot out of you and seduce your women, but sadly i did not. Just another of life's opportunities missed i guess.

Anon

"I seriously doubt Roadkill made up that story about being in combat with women,"

I don't. He said he was an MP, then twice called himself a grunt. Grunts are not MPs, they're MPs. Infantry- and only infantry- are grunts. Anyone that's served in the US Army for any amount of time knows this.

"and he had a right to give his opinion about his experiences."

And we listened, and made counter arguments. And it turns out his alleged combat experience was one ambush which lasted 20 seconds by his account. So um, where does he get off acting as if he has vast volumes of first hand experience in this matter?

"Ya know, as horrible as things went in this Iraq war, it's upbeat and issues are highlighted here when positive things come out of that situation in Iraq, because the odds have been so against them."

The war in Iraq has not gone horribly. People are just unrealistic in their expectations.

The defense of Pearl Harbor went horribly. The defense of the Alamo went horribly. The defense of the Phillipines went horrbly. The campaign in Iraq has gone just about exactly as i'd expected. In fact, our casualties have been much lighter than i ever expected once it became evident there would be an insurgency with some staying power and external state support.

The war in Iraq has to me been an absolute success, and a total validation of the Bush doctrine.

"On the other hand, when something positive happens as to the involvement of women, it is downplayed, and excuses made like it is a negative event."

No, not at all. It is merely pointed out that just as one failure does not invalidate a theory, neither does one success. The critics here(all military from three different nations armed forces Ranging in rank from flag grade to enlisted) have given numerous valid reasons concerning the difficulties with female integration, and not a single one of them have been factually refuted.

"The bad attitude came from Roadkill when his facts didn't fit someone's theories here, then it just snowballed from there."

His bad attitude surfaced because he's immature and can't handle dissenting opinions, so he exploded like a small child. Too bad for him.

"I would just like to call attention to that kind of "politicing" here. It's not fair, it's narrowminded, and very unwelcoming."

Life isn't fair, and honestly, i don't think there should be any room here for tempermental fakes(yes, it is my opinion he was likely a fake, though he got banned before i got a chance to quiz him on anything).

Anon

Bonehead: "Combat is psychological as well as physical."

Agreed.

"If the women have the motivation and the mininum physical skills, she should be able to serve like her male counterparts."

Agreed, with the caveat that the units be segregated. Men and women of that age just cannot realistically be expected to co-habitate like civilized individuals. Don't happen at parties, don't happen at college, and it sure don't happen in the military either. And btw, we've no idea how many women could actually meet the male standards, because they aren't held to the males standards.

"Most of the problems with women in combat that I know of are coming from either the brass, or the males."

I would say it comes from the males and females alike...and a big chunk of the brass ARE females.

"The brass is holding onto the traditional "men only" idealisms and tradition."

This would include the hundreds of female flag grade officers in the US military, and the thousands of field grade officers as well?

That argument is just plain silly because a lot of these units/commands are commanded by women.

"The military has perfectec the art of war using only men. Like it or not, the military will have to adapt for the women."

First, the art of war is not perfected, nor will it ever be. It is a continual evolution as technology and doctrine is improved and refined.

Like it or not, all of us who serve/d will be out of jobs once they invent a robot that can think on it's own. Then we'll get to have this same argument again, 'humans are not good enough to serve in the military'. And guess what, the pro robot people will probably be right.

There is no 'right to serve', so the military doesn't have to change unless it's a change by need, regardless of how unfair you think their policies may be.

"There have been some changes, but they have been a long time in coming. The foot dragging, stonewalling, and discrimination and intimidation must stop."

So must the getting knocked up to escape a deployment, the allegations of sexual harrasment to get a supervisor off your back, the instances of female troops and sailors selling themselves to their shipmates and other men in their unit, and the dual standards that separate the men and women. Unfortunately, none of that will ever stop because all of it is human nature.

When the military is a force of robots, with no humans in sight, that's when those things will finally stop.

"I hope the military is smart and wise enough to adapt in the best manner possible, but sometimes I have my doubts."

I wish people would just let the military handle warfighting as they best see fit. Unfortunately, a lot of people with no fuccking idea what they're talking about seem to think their opinion counts for something.

"Some of the pig headed policies about fraternization in the past were a complete failure, as well as the butt of Letterman and Leno jokes."

Quite the opposite, fraternization is an ever increasing problem in the US military.

"The days of the male military fraternity and, men only in combat are over, in the past, deal with it and move on."

No, the debate is ongoing, and none of us have a crystal ball. So you deal with the fact that debate will not stop simply to placate your sensibilities of fair play, and you move on.

"As for the men, many have a lot to learn."

Well thankfully, you're here to teach us all, since you've apparently got everything figured out.

"The women in your unit is not there for your sexual pleasure."

Nor are we there for theirs. Yet, it takes two to tango cuz.

"Get this out of your mind and grow up. (Hint, Rape is a definate no no. Just like in the real world.)"

And it's illegal, just like in the real world. In fact, rape is a capital crime in the US Military...much harsher than the real world. But as we all know, criminals are not fond of following the law, whether it be civil or military.

"Women are equals and are fully capable of saving your butt when the time arises."

There are no such things as equals in any walk of life. What are you some kind of commie propoganda mouthpiece or something?

I'm not equal at fighting to Roy Jones, no matter how much i insist the opposite. I can't run as fast as Carl Lewis, no matter how much i wish i could. Most people alive can not shoot as well as me, no matter how much they wish they could, and no matter how much they practice.

I'm unsuitable to play middle linebacker(or any position) in the NFL. That's unfair. I demand a chance to play regardless of the fact that there are others that are inherently better than me. Becuase life should be fair dammit!

"They may have to do things differently, but do not make the mistake of thinking they are less capable. They are not."

Science has proven that in some ways women are superior to men , just as in some ways men are physiologically superior to women. Your denial does not change scientific fact backed by countless studies on the differences between the male and female physiology. Some of those studies are quoted in this thread...if you'd actually bothered to read them.

The main attributes needed for a combat arms soldier are strength, endurance/stamina, speed, aggressiveness, discipline and intelligence.

Certainly women are every bit as smart as men, and can be everybit as disciplined on average, but they are not as fast, they're not as strong, and they're not as aggressive on average. They're also not built with as dense a skeletal structure nor is it easy for them to match a males muscle density, on average.

Why does that matter? Because skeletal and muscle density are your natural armor. Because of the males superiority in those two areas men are on averageable to withstand more physical punishment and abuse than women.

No matter how much you wish that these things aren't so, they are, and i suggest it's you that has to learn to deal with that reality.

When it comes to combat arms all available scientific and empirical evidence suggests men are significantly better suited to fill those roles, that's just the way it is.

It's no different than pro sports, but the stakes are a hell of a lot higher. There are no women in pro contact sports for a reason. They're just not big/strong/fast/good enough. It's considered rude to make such basic observations in today's PC driven world, yet the observation is right there practically biting you on the nose. All you have to do is ignore those people that would try to suppress your opinion via labels such as 'dinosaur' and 'sexist'.

I have no problem ignoring the opinions of those that aren't even qualified to make the most basic of judgements on an issue, nor do i have a problem ignoring the pressure of those that would like to silence me to advance their idea of social utopia.

Julie

WASHINGTON -- The Army for the first time is placing women in support units at the front lines of combat because of a shortage of skilled male soldiers available for duty in Iraq and is considering a repeal of the decade-old rule that prohibits women from being deployed alongside combat forces, according to Pentagon officials and military documents.

The Third Infantry Division is the first to attach support units to combat forces, but those changes will be expanded to other units as part of the Army's effort to make its forces more mobile and flexible. Most of the division, based at Fort Stewart, Ga., has arrived in Iraq since Christmas to start a second tour there, and all its deployed units are scheduled to be in the country by the end of the month.

The Army's Third Infantry Division has added scores of female soldiers to newly created ''forward support companies" that provide maintenance, food service, and other support services to infantry, armor, and Special Forces units that commonly engage in combat. ''The Third ID is the first unit to deploy with the reconfiguration, so this will be the first time where this is in question."

The Army, for its part, is closely watching the Third Infantry Division deployment. According to the December briefing by Woods, the Army will ''incorporate lessons learned from Third ID into future decisions on policy affecting assignment and utilization of women soldiers."

''They are able to bond with men or pick up and shoot an automatic weapon when that is necessary. They have no problem living hard in the field," Manning said. ''All those old excuses for why women can't be in combat are falling by the wayside."

''The general take is that they are doing very, very well," said Manning of The Women's Research & Education Institute.

Julie

Now, one of the main reasons they are incorporating women into the fighting combat sector is because of the shortage of male recruits.

Be thankful there is at least someone there (good ole Georgia women) to back you up, and willing to put their lives on the line for you "good men." Maybe when these women joined, they probably had no idea they were going to end up in Iraq, fighting on the front lines. But, obviously, this is where they are being stationed.

If you still got a problem with it, I suggest you rally your guys and get more of them to join, or write your Congressman.

Otherwise, deal with it, the male gender have brought this whole scenario on themselves....the women are just doing as they are told to do.

Officer of Engineers

Julie,

Not your fault since you have little understanding of the combat arms roles and combat support roles. Women are being increased in the combat support roles, not the combat arms. Though exposed to combat and very likely will die in those roles, they are not in the combat arms roles. They are not in the line companies.

Officer of Engineers

This is exactly the kind of ignorance I'm talking about when people have no idea about combat arms. I don't care if you can bond with men or pick up and shoot an automatic weapon. That's expected.

Can you fireman carry your 200lb wounded buddy and carry your 65lb pack out of the firezone after a 24 hour firefight, all the while raining steel? If you can't, man or woman, you have no place in the infantry.