antelope

I received classes on battle fatigue both in OBC, OAC, and at CAS3. None of them were as detailed as the article I read but what I did like about the classes is they all emphasised the classic signs of negative battle fatigue (If I remeber it was called "combat stress"), put it in the proper perspective of being a naturural consequence of combat for a significant portion of the population, and talked about ways to remediate it when possible.

Battle fatigue is similar to anyones mental reaction to repeated trauma. I have never seen people that I served with suffer from battle fatigue but I did notice that the classic signs of battle fatigue could be seen in soldiers who spent a lot of time in the desert and were subjected to repeated shamals while living in tents or without real shelter. As the sound of the winds increased you saw the voices stop talking and the thousand mile stares start, especially among the youngest. When the shamal went away they went back to normal. You can see the same thing among people who weather severe hurricanes and become jittery during any storm. Ever meet someone who has been in multiple car accidents in a short span of time. It often takes them some time to again feel comfortable in a car. Combat is the same thing with a guaranteed return to the horror.

antelope

There is a lot of truth in the saying that time heals all wounds. Although not 100% accurate time spent with loving family, friends, or fellow veterans often is the best medicine a person can have.

People take the demons of war home with them at some level. For most it may be simply the problem of waking up ready to fight when startled out of your sleep by a strange noise. It may simply be the inability to enjoy the beauty of nature when out on recreation because your mind wanders off to where you would place your crew served weapons or where someone would lay in ambush. It may be an occasional nightmare. It may be the guilt one finds in killing another human being years after the fact upon reflection.

This is why on Veterans Day it is important to thank veterans for their service. What we ask soldiers to do is against their nature, kill humans beings. Your thanks reminds them that they did nothing wrong.

In time most but the worst forms of post traumatic stress fade away at least to levels that allow people to live normal lives.

Note: Among veterans returning here locally from Iraq the most common post traumatic stress action I have heard during various interviews is the tendency for soldiers to look for IEDs when driving in their home town for some time upon return. They say they know they aren't here but can't stop from looking out for them when they drive. In time they stop looking for them.

dave angel

antelope, its possible that two discusions are happening here.

battle fatigue and PTSD are different reactions to different situations, unfortunately the term battle fatigue is often used to describe PTSD as it sounds 'better' to the audience and PTSD is sometimes used to describe battle fatigue as it has become an all-encompassing medical term.

from anecdotal evidence, it would appear that troops actively engaged in combat operations are more likely to suffer from battle fatigue in its true form, while those soldiers exposed to combat risk but because of their role not able to actively participate in battle - as well as those who have significant contact with civilian populations in warzones - are more likely to suffer from PTSD.

antelope

Battle fatigue is one form of post traumatic stress disorder. This thread is interesting in that we are mentioning the large swaths of mental issues that stem from wartime service. Battle fatigue tends to be an accumulation of mentally stressful events obviously related to battle. Post traumatic stress disorder can be caused in the same manner or even with one event of a specifically traumatic nature. PTSD is a catch all term as you mention for just about every mentally stressing event that results in some negative change in a person once the event ceases to exist.

People who nearly starve are known to overeat or horde food when unneeded.

People who sees friends killed many not want to be close to people.

I knew a man that was once near a short artillery round in training and from then on would uncontrollably collapse when thunder sounded nearby.

What people see in a war zone may also conflict with their belief systems about how life works and that in itself can cause change in an individual.

When we redeployed from Desert Storm we had an interesting briefing before our return on the family and mental issues we might see in our soldiers. Most of the problems show up almost immediately. You should see how many people beat up their wives or get in drunk driving incidents the first week home. A lot of people seem to have significant issues upon return to normal society. Even if a person has no mental issues simply going from a 100% militarily controlled environment to one of 100% freedom (leave) is a big change that some people don't do well with.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Anon

Julie...

"I'm not quite finished yet about a couple of items in your article. It mentioned women having PTSD due to rape by fellow comrades, and being un-related at all to war trauma. I just read some statistics by experiments done by Yale, that said 63% of PTSD in women was due solely to being raped, or attempted rape, by fellow comrads. Would this fit in "by design," as well? Would the PTSD percentages by women be lower than men, if they did not have to endure this while in the military?"

The article i posted says no such thing....it says women who've been 'abused' in their past have a higher propensity for PTSD,

"Because most research indicates that a person is at greater risk of developing PTSD--or developing more severe PTSD--when he or she has had past traumas, many female troops are deploying to war zones already heavily predisposed to react adversely to the intense fear, killing and loss routinely encountered there.


"The evidence is conclusive," said Rachel MacNair, an expert in the psychological effects of violence and PTSD. "The greater the trauma in your life, the greater the symptoms of PTSD."

Your total lack of understanding of military rank and structure seems to be causing you some problems wrt this discussion.

Pvt's are SUPPOSED to do the dirty work, so as i said, it's by design.

Also, Rapes and Sexual assaults in the US military are extremely rare when compared to civilian rates.

Anon

Antelope, i found the most mentally disturbing times to be the wait before the fight and immediately afterwards.

During the fight you're so intently focused on your job you don't have time to be afraid. It was the lying quiet in wait part that bothered me the most. Then afterwards, when you get a chance to see first hand what you just did.

But that's just me.

Confed999

Were their names ever released? I know it was teams of SEALs, Marines, and Rangers. Mohammed Odeh al Rehaief is the name I remember from that ordeal, but he was Iraqi...

__________________
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry

Anon

The Rescuers were Rangers and SEALS(though i honestly had thought they were delta until a minute ago, lol).

The fact that it's not even clear to those with an interest in the military who actually 'rescued' Miss Lynch does demonstrate the colonels point that the rescuers aren't the ones that got 'press'.

Oh, and here's the details of the Jessica Lynch myth:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...103550,00.html

The woman was not raped, or even poorly treated by her captors, and instead recieved special care and had her own private nurse assigned to her. Jessica Lynch is a war hero like Elmer Fudd is a great hunter....

Here's a washington times article on the 'rescue':

http://washingtontimes.com/national/...2701-9940r.htm

Confed999

I only know what I read, but isn't Delta made up of all those I listed?
Not disputing that, the good side rarely gets press...
IMHO, anyone who goes to war is a hero to some degree, even the enemy.

Anon

http://www.usatoday.com/educate/iraq/war31-article.htm

"After 10 harrowing days as a captive of Iraqi soldiers, Lynch arrived Wednesday night at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in southwest Germany for treatment of two broken legs and a broken arm. "

"An Iraqi pharmacist at Saddam Hospital who gave his name only as Imad told Britain's Sky television that he treated Lynch for leg injuries. Aside from those, he said, she was healthy. "Every day, I saw her crying, wanting to go home," he said."

No broken back, no broken clavicle, no rape.

PS: You were right confed, the rescuers were Rangers and SEALs. Delta is it's own distinct unit. All Delta personnel are army so far as i know(but then, nobody really knows squat about delta, lol).

Confed999

I thought so, with Marines providing a distraction.
Yeah, that's right. I must have heard "all branches of the Army", and took it as all branches of the military. DELTA

Anon

In the interest of fairness to miss lynch, i found this also:

http://www.bocaratonnews.com/index.p...ews&prid=10928

"The diminutive Lynch, who will turn 22 on April 26, received the Bronze Star, a Purple Heart and the POW medal for her service. She still suffers from injuries sustained in the ambush in Iraq, which included a spinal injury and fractures to both legs, her right arm and right foot and ankle. She needs a cane or crutches for mobility."

Who knows which report to believe, i don't.

I will tell you this much, the woman did absolutely NOTHING that i've ever seen reported to deserve her Bronze Star. How do you win an award for valor in combat when you're unconscious? I sure would love to read that commendation, to see what the hell the Army was thinking.

Go figure...

And why no book and movie deals for this former female POW? Perhaps because she's not a pretty white girl?

http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp...1&nav=1TjDX7Xw

Julie

Paragraph 10:

According to Schnurr, data indicate that female military personnel are far more likely than their male counterparts to have been exposed to some kind of trauma or multiple traumas before joining the military or being deployed in combat. That may include physical assault, sexual abuse or rape.

I was just wanting you to compare the PTSD percentages by rank.

Correct, see above response.

I can neither admit nor deny this, since I will have to do some "googling."

Anon

EXCERPT FROM ARTICLE: "According to Schnurr, data indicate that female military personnel are far more likely than their male counterparts to have been exposed to some kind of trauma or multiple traumas before joining the military or being deployed in combat. That may include physical assault, sexual abuse or rape."

Care to tell me how you got from there to here?

QUOTE BY JULIE: "It mentioned women having PTSD due to rape by fellow comrades, and being un-related at all to war trauma. I just read some statistics by experiments done by Yale, that said 63% of PTSD in women was due solely to being raped, or attempted rape, by fellow comrads. Would this fit in "by design," as well? Would the PTSD percentages by women be lower than men, if they did not have to endure this while in the military?"

What you alleged is not at all supported by the article i posted, and quite frankly, i find the insinuation that male soldiers make a habit of preying on 'hapless' female soldiers extremely insulting.

"I was just wanting you to compare the PTSD percentages by rank."

The greater the rank and responsibility, the greater the feeling of guilt for commiting young soldiers to their death at your orders. I don't know if anyone has ever done a rank by rank shell shock study though.

"I can neither admit nor deny this, since I will have to do some "googling."

I think you'll see that i am correct in my observation. In fact, i'd bet the civilian rape rate is 10x higher than it is in the military, if not higher.

http://www.americasdebate.com/forums...php/t6426.html

"It's just one of the more than 100 incidents of rape, sexual assault and other forms of sexual misconduct reported in the past 18 months by U.S. women soldiers currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan who have been sexually assaulted by fellow U.S. soldiers."

Approx 100 allegations in 18 months among a rotated population of probably 500,000 individuals. How would that compare with the civilian rates in the US? Anyone know?

Julie

Via: http://www.legion.org/?section=veter...ptsd_whogetsit

For many military women sexual harassment, assault, and rape are the cause of their PTSD. Unfortunately, the number of female veterans reporting these crimes is very high. However, these incidents often go unreported because the women are usually of lower rank than their assailants, or are in their chain of command. If they report, they are at risk of being shunned, or losing their jobs. There are many other complicating factors that affect military women who have been raped, which are different from the civilian community. Military women are faced with issues of betrayal, role identification (Soldier/Victim) and loyalty to their service after being assaulted. This can be even more difficult if the rape occurred in a combat zone. The Navy operates the Sexual Assault Victim Intervention (SAVI) program.

Your article "breezes" by the issue, by using one word -- "before." Of course, it is extremely insulting to me as well. However, according to my research, it does in fact occur.


Considering the civilian population is 10x higher than the military, that would probably be correct.