Julie

At that time, it was highly unusual to find ANY survivors of an ambushed unit, if memory serves me correctly. The "glorious" issue of Jessica Lynch, was that they found here BEFORE she had been executed. To me, Jessica Lynch, was an heroic symbol of the special ops team who went in and saved her.

I didn't know that women getting attention in combat annoyed you so greatly.

Officer of Engineers

Name one person on that team.

Not annoyed, extremely troubled. Most of us who has seen combat don't want the attention; especially un-earned attention.

__________________
Chimo

Julie

Army Spc. Lori Piestewa — the first American servicewoman killed in the Iraq war. Jessica Lynch's best friend.

Did you know that Jessica Lynch created a foundation, and donated monies with a book deal she received, to help educate the children of fallen comrads?

I don't think Ms. Lynch is the one who arranged for the media attention. Actually, it was a military cameraman who had shot footage of the rescue.http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...956255,00.html

I know I will fry for this, but THIS is what I don't like about the battle of the sexes threads....the emergence of overblown men egos.

Officer of Engineers

Not part of that team who saved her.

We never asked for the attention. Not a single man or woman in uniform arranges for the attention. In fact, we try not to get it, especially from the bad guy shooting at us.

However, none of it changes the fact that it is unearned attention.

You lost me. I was speaking as an officer, not as a man.

Julie

Excuse me, I misunderstood the question. No, I can not.

The American (civilian) people gave her that recognition. It's called "Support our Troops."

Excuse me, I misunderstood yet again. I would not think an officer who survived a beating, rape, broken ankle, and a broken back, and still walks with a cane to this day, should go without recognition, especially by another officer. But that is my opinion as a civilian.

So, let me get this straight then, you and Snipe say, as officers, that what Officer Lynch endured should have gone unnoticed by American civilians, as well as military personnel?

Anon

I was talking about media attention.

And you knew that girls name without looking it up?

PFC Rodriguez is the only other one i know of, and only because he was the one that attempted to defend the American position, killing three Iraqi soldiers while dealing with a malfunctioning rifle.

Anyway, the point i was trying to make, is that it's more traumatic for someone like Lynch because she gets thrown into the media spotlight.

And that was not much of a rescue from what i recall.

The majority of Lynch's injuries came from the vehicle accident which rendered her unconscious for the whole fight. I had not heard she was raped(though at first it was said she was, then it was said she wasn't). When did this come out?

PS: Jessica lynch was not an officer, she was a Private First Class, and i was an NCO, or non-comissioned officer. An officer is commisioned by the President of the United States.

Julie

Me too.

Yes, that was the only name I recalled (I did look up the spelling), because Lynch gave a press conference about her.

I disagree entirely. I think any successful rescue is very important. I do recall one where some military men that had been held hostage and escaped, were rescued and as the camera zoomed in on the men in the helicopter, one of the rescued men was crying.

I'm not familiar with rank and file as I am a civilian. Don't think it matters anyway. Serving your country, is serving your country, no matter what class you are in my book. The privates usually have the dirtiest jobs.

Anon

"The privates usually have the dirtiest jobs."

That's by design.

dave angel

back to subject.

i liked the piece of research. anything which assists in the recognition and treatment of PTSD is good news.

and so what if the researcher is critical of the militarys' handling of PTSD - i believe florence nightingale had some choice comments to make about military medical support. didn't do her any harm.

big statement time

i had PTSD when i came back from bosnia the first time, i was nineteen and had seen things that made my eyes bleed. it was my first operational tour and we saw things that hadn't happened in europe for 50 years.

fortunately it was spotted quickly and i receieved excellent treatment, my army career continued and i was subsequently commisioned. i treat it like a knee injury - i go about my job as before, i'm just a bit careful when i get a twinge.

good luck to this lass.

Julie

I'm not quite finished yet about a couple of items in your article. It mentioned women having PTSD due to rape by fellow comrades, and being un-related at all to war trauma. I just read some statistics by experiments done by Yale, that said 63% of PTSD in women was due solely to being raped, or attempted rape, by fellow comrads. Would this fit in "by design," as well? Would the PTSD percentages by women be lower than men, if they did not have to endure this while in the military?

Bluesman

Thanks for doin' the job, Dave. And I appreciate that you took the mental hit and kept goin'. My respects, sir.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

dave angel

thank you bluesman. i am grateful for your support, i know PTSD can seem a bit like lepresy in the military sometimes so its nice when people just treat it just like any other injury.

now soldiers - in the british army at least, not sure about the culture in the US Army - are able to be more open about PTSD it appears to be becoming less of a problem in that it is diagnosed earlier and treated more effectively.

Bluesman

I think that's true here, too, but not being an actual member of the combat veteran community myself, I may have misinterpreted it.

One of our guys took some time off of the rotation to kind of re-tune his head. When he came back online, the fellas really seemed to rally 'round him, and he wasn't treated as the black duckling, or anything like that. But another guy that I work with (and like me, not a combat veteran, so HE could be wrong, too) said he thought they were treating him EXTRA careful, like a charity case almost. Not my take, but I do know that he was invited to a party that everybody else said they were spreading the word that nobody was supposed to get drunk, or encourage alcohol intake.

I have never received training in spotting symptoms of PTSD. We are supposed to refer any concerns that we have up the cahin. But frankly, I think we need to at least get junior officers and senior NCOs into the ID business. I know my role, and it's not therapist nor counselor, so I do not think that would be called-for. But I'm the guy with the greatest amount of contact with my people; I should have a larger role in spotting the 'non-bleeing wound'.

antelope

I think people often don't realize the difference between time spent in a war zone and actual time spent in combat. I wish I had the article and chart on battle fatigue. It was very enlightening. Back when I was on active duty the Army times printed a nice article on the study also. The government has spent some good research money on this since the end of World War II. At any rate when we are talking about hours in combat I mean real hours in combat. That doesn't include when you are manning a perimeter, driving to battle, preparing for battle. It means when you are giving fire against someone who can give fire back. Taking incoming artillery counts but firing outgoing artillery doesn't in this research. Shooting from your tank against an enemy that can't fire back does not count.

As noted earlier the earliest changes a person has to combat are positive in nature. Even a person who has seen a mid level of combat in these studies would show no outward negative signs of battle fatigue. Depending on the person later stage battle fatigue may be obvious especially among those having a total breakdown or not obvious among those who fatalism appears either heroic or careless.

Officers in general seldom suffer from the more severe stages of battle fatigue. As a result they also tend not to recognize it as anything other than personal weakness. The reason for this among officers is that only low ranking officers are subjected to the amount of actual combat that can create battle fatigue before they are promoted to positions were their participation in battle is actually indirect. In addition junior officers who do participate directly in battle have a higher fatality rate than enlisted soldiers per hour in combat thus eliminating the chance to see the outward signs of battle fatigue among these people.

Without knowing you personally I am willing to bet that the hours of actual combat spent by your soldiers in actual combat no where near puts them in the later stages of battle fatigue. At this point I would expect very few if any American soldiers have reached the hours of real combat needed to be effected in the more severe ways.

Taking people "off the line" does help to remediate battle fatigue. However studies show that this is a short term not long term solution. Upon return to actual combat those who have previously suffered battle fatigue rapidly return to such a state again. When a returning battle fatigued soldier comes off R&R you may have the illusion he is back to normal until the actual combat environment returns again.

Individuals do vary but the trend among all people is a given according to government studies. Statistics say however that few people can survive the amount of combat needed to reach later stage battle fatigue but when working with large numbers the law of averages say some do get there. Since so few reach that stage and no one who hasn't had it happen to them truly understands it you seldom find true empathy for these individuals except from members of the medical establishment.

Think about it: If your platoon engages an enemy platoon. The engagement last one hour. You kill the entire enemy platoon but one of your soldiers is killed. This is actually good odds for you. However do the math. In such an environment where you are overwhelmingly favored the average soldier dies after about 15 hours of real combat. As a result of the law of averages some people survive long afterwards as replacements die instead. The odds of ever spending 100 hours in real combat and actually surviving to live with the mental damage are very remote.

One caveat on this stuff: You can spend years in a war zone and spend little time in actual combat. You can also be in the right (or wrong) unit at the right (or wrong) time and spend an extreme amount of time in real combat but be in the war zone a relatively short time. Battle fatigue is a factor of time in combat not time in a war zone.

dave angel

absolutely, in an infantry section your lance-corporal wouldn't ignore a soldiers limp just because he doesn't have a medical degree. and as you point out, how would the unit medical officer know when a soldier was acting abnormaly when the MO might only see that soldier for five minutes every six months?

unfortunately the symptoms are as varied as human behaviour, but my battalion group had cases going from suicide to domestic violence to impotence (not me!) or people just not being able to relate to normal society - i remember that going shopping in town was a big thing for quite a few blokes, they just found themselves filled with real rage and hatred for the civvies they saw in the supermarket. marriages broke up and people drifted off, but as these things also happen in people not likely to be suffering from PTSD it is often very difficult to diagnose correctly and treat appropriately.

i was very fortunate that the symptoms i displayed were pretty obvious, so help was quickly forthcoming, but it did take time to manage the problem and i suppose that i still suffer from it to some degree. it didn't harm my career, i've been on quite a few operational deployments since and not had a problem so i have no concern about talking about it to those in my unit who go on deployments to sunny places - hopefully that makes them more comfortable about talking to the trick cyclist when they return.

i hope your colleagues have recovered, its quite difficult to go back to old friends when you're not feeling well and a bit embarrassed about your illness, so a welcoming environment is incredibly important for recovery as is one that backs off the beer, whoever sorted that out in your unit should get a medal.