Stan187

Americans can't make promises for NATO, because they are but one constituent country of said organization.

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In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

Aryol

That's just lame excuse. In this case what they signed this document for?

braindead

can you give a link to the document ?

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Aryol

No. I'm trying to find it now, but i'm not sure that i'll manage to do it

highsea

He was the one that made the promise.

Please provide the text of said agreement.

The discussion between Bush Sr. and Gorby left the decision to the Germans, as per the Helsinki Accords. It was never a NATO decision, it was up to Germany.

Again, please provide the text for the claim. The Helsinki Accords are the governing agreement wrt European contries and their individual alliances. Anything else would be a violation of their sovereignty. Gorby recognized this.

Afaik, NATO has never coerced a member state to join. If you have evidence to the contrary, please trot it out. The former Soviet States that joined NATO did it on their own accord, and for obvious reasons.

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My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

Aryol

I'll try.

7thsfsniper

I don't think another "cold" war is the cards for the near future. Another terrorist bombing in India today. Things just keep escalating. Hmm?

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The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten

aktarian

Then who was destroying Russian tanks in grozny? Who retook it?

He won referendum about his position as president before independance. and was supporting it before it anyways

Indeed, attack the messanger if you don't like the message.

Aryol

There is a difference between armed rebels and peacefull citizens. Do you think that peacefull citizens were destroing tanks using RPG's?

mweber24

Gorbachov? Why does anyone listen to that loser? Isn't he about the WORST leader in recorded history? Lost his country without even a fight?

The U.S. does NOT want another cold war with Russia, thank you very much. We have quite enough on our plate as it is than to worry about a nation that is dying by degrees already. We were perfectly happy to ignore Russia (the ultimate slight, I know), but oil profits have made them swagger again.

IMO, it is Europe that is preoccupied with Russia, not the US. NATO expands with a general US desire (we seem to like alliances, not that they seem to do us much good), but the drive to expand east come from Europe. Who stands most to gain from moving NATO east, the US, or France, and especially Germany? I think Germany is REALLY happy to have Poland as a fairly solid buffer against Russia. They get defense, and then they cut their military budget to pay for socialist programs. NATO expansion guarentees that western Europe will not have to deal with a resurgent Russia, the US as big brother and the eastern European states will, so western Europe can act morally superior and ignore the problems of the world while blaming the US for excessive militarism.

For the record, I am against further NATO expansion, it obligates the US to fight (most likely) Russia, for very little return at this point. Russia poses no strategic threat to the US, other than poor oil policies. Why we confront it on stupid issues like Kosovo is beyond me. I sympathize with Ukraine, but until the locals decide their future (there is a 50/50 split right now), I am content to wait until the issue is decided and HOPE that Russia doesn't destabilized Ukraine too much in its inevitable attempt to get it back. I also sympathiz with Georgia, but I am unwilling to back a war with a nuclear power for Georgian territorial claims for territory on a map DRAWN BY THE USSR! I would much rather nudge Russia into strategic cooperation on the margins. Don't like Islamic extremism? Niether do we! Lets cooperate, just don't level Chechnya again, try some good counter-insurgency tactics instead! Like to sell weapons? So do we, but please find a better market than Iran, a direct threat to our interests. Let's talk about how we can cooperate to isolate the worst aspects of Iran (what do you want to cut it off?) What are you going to do about a resource starved China and a HUGE border you can't defend with a dying population? Want to make some more oil money, lets talk foreign direct investment that will dramatically increase your oil productivity?

I understand the need for Russia to always have a boogyman, but can't it be someone BESIDES the USA for a change? How about the Mongol and the Turk again?

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Aryol

Фигасе ляпнул

He changed the world and made it much more comfortable and safe to live, and you call him the worst leader???

mweber24

So he was made Chairman of the Communist Party to ensure the Soviet Union disintegrated and that Russia was made weaker than even after the Revolution? The world is safer because the Soviet Union disintegrated, true, but this was never Gorbachev's intent, so he is a poor leader. I suspect that those who support Putin don't think Gorbachev did such a great job either.

The world would arguably be "safer" if Reagan had made the US a Communist state answerable to Moscow, but that was not why he was elected.

7thsfsniper

[quote=Aryol;495372]Фигасе ляпнул translation?

QUOTE]

7thsfsniper

First, welcome to the WAB. Second, please explain? I guess I'm just not getting it.

mweber24

Surrendering before a conflict becomes too intense is a great way to avoid more conflict, but you are still a loser. I am trying to infer that thinking that the head of the Soviet communist party wanted and worked to ensure that the communist party was totally discredited as a legitimate philosophy AND dramatically weakening his home country in relative terms to the west is like thinking Reagen wanted to be a communist. Not bloody likely. Post cold war accolades for Gorbachev, and his acceptance of them, is pure spin to avoid giving credit where it is due.