Firral

You name me a hypocrite?
It is simply ridiculous! I am not surprised to you, you have got used to double standards, discussing Russia.
All that Russia in Kosovo this observance of international law wanted! You have broken it, having recognized independence of separatists. However you accuse Russia of support of South Ossetia and Abkhazia though it is completely lawful, as the Russian peacemakers, according to arrangements (on June, 24th, 1992 in Sochi it is signed quadrilateral Russian-Georgian-Ossetic (Northern and South Ossetia) the Agreement on principles of settlement of the Georgian-Ossetic conflict. On July, 14th, 1992 South Ossetia included the mixed Russian-Georgian-Ossetic peace-making forces.), protect borders of autonomous republics.
All that now wants Russia, it observance of arrangements on presence of peacemakers and for observance of integrity of Georgia (Abkhazia and South Ossetia are worthy independence, but it is illegal).
But Georgia wants leaving peacemakers as they stir to conducting operations by them.

There is a set of places on the Earth where live people wishing independence. Abkhazia, Ossetia, Basques, Kurds, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Four American states (Indians - aboriginals), some areas of Estonia, Kashmir, Tibet, Palestin and many other things. Why you have supported only Albanians? You in fact knew that it illegally?

__________________

Firral

1. Russia conducted operations in territory of the Chechen Republic. The Chechen Republic is the subject of the Russian Federation, and according to the international laws, Russia had the full right it to do.
2. Russia has not recognized independence of Kosovo, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Dnestr republic - as it is illegal.
3. Russia, according to arrangements between Georgia and South Ossetia, has entered peace-making forces on borders of republic South Ossetia, and thus has finished the conflict.

1. The USA, ignoring norms of international law, around of the United Nations and Secutiry council, the United States NATO forces have developed campaign of 78-day's air bombardments of the independent state of Yugoslavia.
2. The USA, breaking the international laws, under a false pretext (the weapon of mass defeat and it is not found) has grasped Iraq.
3. The USA, have supported independence of Kosovo though it is infringement of international law.

Not to you to speak me about hypocrisy!!!

rj1

That's a slippery slope though, basing whether a country should exist or not on a minority's majority presence in a region, and is why I thought Kosovo set a terrible precedent for the future.

Should the Scottish and Welsh regions separate from the English-dominated Britain? Should the Catalan and Basque regions separate from the Castilian-dominated Spain? Should the Kurds separate from Turkey, Iran, and Iraq (we're just finishing up our one war in the region, let's have another!)? Should the French Canadians separate from Canada and form the sovereign nation of Quebec? Should the First Nations of Canada separate from Canada? Should the various Indian reservations separate from the American-dominated U.S.? Should the native Hawaiians separate from the American-dominated U.S.? Should Mississippi when it becomes black majority in the coming years separate from the white-dominated U.S.? Should the Alaskans separate from the continental-dominated U.S.?

rj1

I agree entirely.

I'm just pointing out that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization is little more than a Russian defense org, and yet has never fought the Russians in 60 years of existance.

I also agree with you on Georgia.

Ray

All around the Mulberry Bush,
The monkey chased the weasel.
The monkey stopped to pull up his sock, (or The monkey stopped to scratch his nose)
Pop! goes the weasel.

Half a pound of tuppenny rice,
Half a pound of treacle.
Mix it up and make it nice,
Pop! goes the weasel.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

The Russian roulette!

Firral

Idiotic delirium.

Really, you can trust it?

mweber24

Firral,
I agree with you that the US should not have recognized the independance of Kosovo, but for political reasons, NOT "international law". Please recall the origins of the US, we declared independance! Did we break the law? Did France break the law by helping us? Don't be ridiculous. Any group can declare independance, it is not "illegal", but they had better be prepared to fight for it! Ask the Confederate States of America (recognized by France and U.K., but not supported directly). In my mind, Kosovo cheated. Albanians moved into Serbia, revolted, Serbia overreacted in trying to maintain their borders, and Kosovo ends up with international sympathy. They can only maintain independance by relying on the US and EU to pound Serbia again like they did in 1999. I don't appreciate being used by a bunch of thugs, especially those distantly related to Janisaries. It certainly did not help that Serbia supported atrocities after the break up of Yugoslovia, but the current government of Serbia is not a dictatorship and Serbia has exercised control over Kosovo for a LONG time (a lot longer than the Soviets controled Lithuania for example) Serbia should be held to international account for any atrocities it commits in efforts to maintain authority (similar to the PRC and Tibet IMO), but Serbia has every right to decide its own fate without gorillas like the US and EU interfering. Especially since the US has nothing to gain! (I would much rather cooperate with Russia in efforts against Muslim extremism and MAYBE the PRC. They certainly are a potential economic trade partner). That being said, Russian efforts in Georgia are just as illegitimate as effort to support Kosovo. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Soviets had those two provinces located in Georgia, why didn't they fix the borders then? Now Russia wants to reclaim chunks to Georgia because THAT IS WHAT RUSSIA DOES with its neighbors when it is not weakened by external attack or internal civil war. Cry me a river over the Abkhazia. They would fair just as well under DEMOCRATIC Georgian rule than autocratic Russian rule, if not better in the long run.

P.S. I don't think Georgia or the Ukrain for the matter should be allowed into NATO. It is irresponsibly provokative to Russia, and more importantly to me, of no significant benefit to the US while a MAJOR obligation given Russian historic designs on it immediate neighbors. Fight over it if you want, just leave us out of it. I am in favor or encouraging democracy, even fighting for it againt truely despicable despots with people who have been abused, but I have to draw a limit against potentially fighting a nuclear power, in their geographic backyard, for a kinda corrupt fledgling democracy. If the EU wants to bait the bear, let them assume responsibility.

__________________
The SWO

Oscar

"If the EU wants to bait the bear, let them assume responsibility"

The EU will do nothing, of course, and neither will the US. This is Russia's zone, so we don't want to get involved in this spat it will make things worse. Georgia has to accomodate with its neighbour and for that it must not get a chance to play the giants.

LetsTalk

Apparently you did not read my whole post(s), or read the word hypocrite and blocked everything else out. My exact quote about Kosovo was "I do not agree with how Kosovo was handled". You can also review other posts I have made on the subject on this board.

I am not referring to the Russian peace-keepers in the region, I am talking about the time of the civil wars. Russia did support the separatist movements, with logistics, equipment and in other ways. What happened especially in Abkhazia was wrong.

There are more than enough articles on Wikipedia, the BBC, and many other sites on these subjects, that support my statement about the Russian Support.

North Ossetia-Alania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
South Ossetia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Abkhazia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It does not look that way when you review Russia's current actions.

I have addressed many of these in other posts. Here is a short summary of what I think. I believe in democratic principles, so if Mississippi decides to vote out of the Union let them (something that I do not ever see happening in my lifetime by the way). A semi-autonomous territory of the United States Puerto Rico has voted several times to decide their status, please read the quote from Wikipedia below.

"Three locally-authorized plebiscites have been held in recent decades to decide whether Puerto Rico should pursue independence, enhanced commonwealth status, or statehood. The relationship with the U.S. has remained unchanged due to narrow victories by commonwealth supporters over statehood advocates in the first two plebiscites, and an unacceptable definition of commonwealth by the pro-statehood leadership on the ballots in the third. In the latest status referendum of 1998, the "none of the above" option won over Statehood, a rejection by Commonwealthers of the definition of their status on the ballots, with 50.2% of the votes. Support for the pro-statehood party, Partido Nuevo Progresista (PNP) and the pro-commonwealth party, Partido Popular Democrático (PPD) remains about equal. The only registered pro-independence party, the Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño (PIP), usually receives 3-5% of the electoral votes, though there are several smaller independence groups like the Partido Nacionalista de Puerto Rico ("Puerto Rican Nationalist Party"), el Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano ("National Hostosian Independence Movement"), and the Macheteros - Ejercito Popular Boricua ("Boricua Popular Army")."

Puerto Rico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Officer of Engineers

Ok, just so that everybody knows who's who and why they assume their positions.

Ray - Indian Army Brigadier (Retired)
Firral - Russian Naval Infantry Captain
mweber24 - USN Lieutenant-Commander

In short, gentlemen, there are some personal oaths involved here. Do try to observe them.

__________________
Chimo

LetsTalk

"Ok, just so that everybody knows who's who and why they assume their positions.

Ray - Indian Army Brigadier (Retired)
Firral - Russian Naval Infantry Captain
mweber24 - USN Lieutenant-Commander

In short, gentlemen, there are some personal oaths involved here. Do try to observe them."

Office of Engineers, I will keep this in mind when posting in the Aviation, Navy, Land Forces and other military specific forums. I believe that anyone serving their nation should be respected for their service. But with your post I hope you are not trying to quiet me or any of the other posters down, and I hope you are not saying that our input is not as valuable simply because we are not active or retired military members with a rank. Many of as have advanced college degrees, have spend hours reading books, newspapers, traveled and lived in more than one country, and have plenty of life experiences of our own.

Russia has bullied many of its former partners and subjects in the Soviet Union, Georgia is one of them, I find Russia's support for the Separatists hypocritical as I stated in my prior posts on this topic, especially when they are so against other separatists in the region, when it does not serve their interests. I have plenty of supporting links in my posts were others can go and get more information on this topic. And just as others have the right to criticize our American foreign policy in Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Israeli/Palestinian conflict and so on, I have the right to criticize the foreign policy and actions of other nations.

Firral

In those days there were no the general for all nations of laws. Now such law is (the charter of the United Nations from 1975). In the charter of the United Nations it is declared, that the state “ should abstain from any actions directed on infringement of national unity and territorial integrity of any other state "." The Territory of the state should not be object of purchase by other state as a result of threat by force or its application ”. In this connection any territorial purchases which have grown out threat by force or its application ” should not admit lawful.
If we and you have signed this law let's it follow. If you will be guided only by the interests (" political reasons ") you become similar to the criminal who laughs at the law, and does that he wants.
If we shall be guided only by the " political reasons " in that case, Russia recognizes independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia! But then, do not accuse Russia of separatism! You have the right to do it, we too have on this right!

Benefit for the USA, is military base (the greatest in the Europe) which is in Kosovo. Benefit is a pressure upon " historical allies " Russia. Benefit is an instability in the Europe which raises a role of dollar, and lowers a role of euro.
There is a set of benefits which have the USA from Kosovo.

You compare?
The USA has recognized independence of Kosovo.
Russia has only told, that will expand economic relations from South Ossetia and Abkhazia (as you do in Taiwan). Russia has not recognized their independence though the governments of these countries addressed with such request to Russia.
You have broken the law, we have not made it!

It is the administrative reason.
These two regions have been subordinated Georgia as were small what to be separate republic USSR. For simplification of their management (to not create separate controls in each region), them have subordinated and have included in Georgian SSR.

If Russia was guided by the desires and spat on the international laws (as it does the USA) it for a long time would attach Abkhazia and South Ossetia to herself. And not Georgians, not you could not make anything with it.

It is a little ridiculous. I even think to create a new theme on WAB.
Why Russia "despotic", Georgia "democratic"? Let's not use such definitions.
Compare: Russia (2008), Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Russia (1993).
What of them you will name "democracies", and what "despotic"?
I shall tell to you: your mass-media are named "democracies" by Ukraine, Georgia, Russia (1993). And "despotic" Belarus, Russia (2008).
All difference only in one: Russia (2008) and Belarus carry out the independent policy. While Ukraine, Georgia and Russia (1993) - have the pro-American governments.
Your mass-media (I constantly read your newspapers on the Internet) tell all about " reduction of democracy " in Russia, about oppressions and other. It looks ridiculous here (in Russia) as it is absolutely false.

I think you are right in it.
Russia are not present need for new territories. The only thing that is necessary is a calmness about its borders. Probably it is "not democratic", but Russia will always have influence on the neighbours (also as the USA to Mexico for example).

Firral

In your words there is a part of the truth.
However here all is much more difficult, than it is represented to you. The matter is that after disorder of the USSR has occured "nationalism" of former republics. For example my friend (it was my girl some time) together with parents was the refugee from Uzbekistan though their family lived there from the end of 19 centuries. A problem became that there were oppressions of those (Russian, Ukrainians, Armenians, etc.) who was not the "base" nation. The vivid example the Chechen Republic: during with 88 for 93 year, therefrom ran about 130 thousand person.
The same occured and in Georgia about coming to power of president Zviada Gamsahurdia who has put forward the slogan " Georgia for the Georgian ". So-called " ethnic cleanings " There have begun, and attitudes between Ossets, Abkhazia and Georgians have become aggravated. I do not wish to speak, who from them the rights and who is not present. Mine opinions are not present "right" and " not right " in civil war, are guilty all.
For example I shall give an example for Ossetia.
If to judge under the law:
In April, 1990 at extraordinary XIII session of the Supreme body Georgian SSR and in June, 1990 at extraordinary XIV session of the Supreme body Georgian SSR the legal certificates accepted after connection of Georgia to the USSR, occured 1921 have been recognized illegal all. Illegal between USSR and subjects of federation and Laws of the USSR on differentiation of powers also have been declared secession of the USSR.
I.e. Georgia itself has refused these republics, having accepted this decision. However later, on December, 10th, 1990 the Supreme body of Republic Georgia has unanimously accepted an illegal decision on abolition of Southern ossetic autonomous region, i.e. abolition of an autonomy which Ossets want.
(Where here a role of Russia???)
At night with 5 for January, 6th, 1991 the management of Georgia without notice authorities of South Ossetia has entered into capital of South Ossetia of division of militia and national guards of Georgia. They have started to make searches, arrests, murders of people, robberies, arsons of apartment houses and other criminal acts. Civil war which proceeded before arrival of peacemakers has begun. South Ossetia and Northern Ossetia (entering into Russia) is one nationality. Naturally that inhabitants of Northern Ossetia (i.e. citizens of Russia) were at war on the party of South Ossetia.
As to the Russian authorities during this period the authority on was weak so much that did not undertake any actions.

I already spoke about it: at present actions of Russia are absolutely lawful.

I live in the multinational country. I assure you, you will not find distinctions to honey Russian, the Tatar, Mordovian or Chuvashiyan. When they speak about themselves, they name themselves Russian, i.e. citizens of Russia.
I know that such the interethnic conflict. Exist small (at a household level) national discontent. At skilful management, these of discontent it is possible to increase before interethnic war. The people wishing authority use it. And they reach success if the central authority is weak.
This way - a way of wars and conflicts. If you allow to live each nationality separately will open box Pandora. There Is no not one one-national country in the world.

PS: I Hope you could read through my English.

Officer of Engineers

I am saying that there are some very fierce national loyalties involved as is always the case with career officers. Do keep that in mind when discussing the issue.