braindead

that they originally lost their State in 1791 was their own fault , so agree with you on this .
The sad demise of young democracies in 1930-s is a sad chapther in history of Europe .
And one really has to have a pretty´strong country to resist at same time Nazi Germany AND Sov.Union if they attack you both at same time . I do not know any country in Europe who could have resisted in such circumstances .
Who needs them - well , we do .

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Berkis

From my history sudies I remember that Rzeczpospolita was one of the largest and most populous countries in 17th century Europe. It was the first European state to have a noble’s democracy as a system of government – the tradition, which hasn’t merely historical value. Besides, its economy was very developped; it was Europe’s largest grain producer at that time. No wonder, that it had become really desirable booty for strong and stable states…

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Usus magister est optimus

Alex_Ivanov

Beyond the brute military force, there're politics. Only very tough guys can afford having a lot of enemies and almost no friends. Poland, being one of most probable targets of German invasion after Munich 1938, at the same time had tensions with SU and was too proud and freedom-loving to consider any kind of defence pact with red devil. And to expect western friends from far away to defend it, Poland had to make sure whether those friends know what is Poland and where it is.

Such 'wise' policy and obvious military weakness combined led to expected result: Poland was ..., oh no, again

In 1939, even before Spetember, Poland couldn't be saved, so Stalin tried to gain at least something. When Soviet troops crossed the border, Polish state and army were destroyed already, so the question was only where Germans would stop their advance. Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact allowed to create buffer zone and to delay war at least a little, so I think it was rather wise political move of Stalin, fate of Poland and Baltics aside. Everyone cares of himself only, after all. So why blame Stalin?

braindead

Well , Germany and Poland had non-agression pact , which was voided by Hitler in 1938 .
SU and Poland already had a non-agression pact too (since 1932) . Besides Poland had Mutual Assistance Treaty with UK and France .
Of course it was smart move from Stalin´s part . He was IMO much smarter man than carpet-munching hysteric in Germany .
And Baltic states did exactly what you suggested and the result was ... oh , yeah , Stalin violated every aspect of pacts within 4 months , brought in 6-7 times the troops over agreed numbers , staged coups etc.
At least Poland went down fighting , with flying colours . Shame on us .

MrFirst

There was a time when the Poles used to divide and conquer Russia. But times have changed.

And Soviet armies came into Poland after Germany ended its campaign. Poles didn't resist by then, so, that wasn't attack "at the same time". Besides, Poles had treaty with England and France and thus this was obligation of these countries to protect Poland, not of the Soviet Union.

braindead

Well , entering without host goverments permit makes it an invasion to me . SU was an agressor just as Germany . Simple .

MrFirst

Polish government fled to Romania at the same day when Soviet forces came in Poland. SU just was returning its lands.

Berkis

Common... I think your interpretation of historical facts is not entirely accurate .

Warsaw, defended by reorganised retreating polish units, civilian volunteers and militia, held out until its capitulation on 28 September. Soviets attacked Poland on 17 September. The last operational unit of the Polish Army capitulated near Lublin on 6 October.

At Brest-Litovsk, Soviet and German commanders held a joint victory parade before German forces withdrew westward behind a new demarcation line according Molotov-Ribentrop pact.

MrFirst

17 sep. the Germans were in Brest, Polish government in Romania, Warsaw was encircled. As a matter of fact the German-Polish war was over.

Fallout

Just for note: what an interesting coincidence: polish government leaves the country and soviet army enters the same day. They must've had good intelligence.. Well, not. Think, where the polish government could reside before they left country? Somewhere in the east of country obviously, near soviet border. Got it now? They left Poland AFTER they heard red army has crossed the borders.

MrFirst

The Polish government was in centre of the then Poland, in the city of Lyublin. Obviously you're right, they left country after Red Army crossing borders. But this doesn't change the fact the Poles were defeated and the only question was where the Germans stop. They easily could seize the whole Poland and thus USSR would get the border some hundreds kilometres nearer to Moscow.

braindead

Then again , if SU moves in and captures half of Poland that puts THEM couple hundered km.-s from Berlin.....

Berkis

That wasn’t German - Polish war.

That was the war of Germany and the Soviet Union jointly attacking Poland after conclusion of Molotov-Ribentrop pact. Soviets and Germans jointly besieged Lwów and there were numeros battles between Soviet and Polish forces. One of the last was a battle of Wytyczno still on October 1.

By the way, On 31 October, Molotov reported to the Supreme Soviet:: "A short blow by the German army, and subsequently by the Red Army, was enough for nothing to be left of this ugly creature of the Treaty of Versailles”.

MrFirst

If that was a "war of Germany and the Soviet Union jointly attacking Poland", then Poland and Germany were jointly attacking Czechoslovakia in 1938, as is known Germany took Sudetes, Poland - Teschen Silesia. As for siege of Lvov, the German troops left this area after Soviets approached city and the touch between two armies took place, so the "jointly besieged" is a little exaggeration, to put it mildly. And again, the Germans attacked 1 september, the Soviets 17 september. More than two weeks, where the Poland's allies were??? Why didn't they strike Germany from west? Poland itself was aggressor state which had seized Teschen from Czechoslovakia and Vilnius region from Lithuania. So, Molotov perhaps was right, calling this the "ugly creature of the Treaty of Versailles".

Big K

the treaty of Versailles was the precursor of the ww2. thats for sure

but

what about the Massacre of Katyn Forest?

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