Russia on the march - again - Page 15

Stan187 · 06-20-2007, 15:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Putin is not a stupid leader.

Yeltsin could be?

Gorbachev is iffy.

Gorbachev wasn't stupid. He was naive. He tried to please both the reforms and the hardliners, so much so that he eroded his political support with the Politburo and the Communist Party.

Feanor · 06-20-2007, 20:17 PM

Gorbachev also had no idea how to make a nations economics work . . . . . . . otherwise he would have known that a fast transition would cause the Soviet economy to crash. In terms of Putin, you have to look at teh fact that he is notmaking any long-term investment into Russia. Instead all problems are treated with minor patch-ups, or ignored outright. And he uses his position on the world stage to make it look like Russia is coming back. This wins him what little popular suport he does have.

Ray · 06-21-2007, 13:24 PM

Quote:

June 21, 2007
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Russia Reluctant to Share the Caspian

Tehran Hosts Conference of Caspian Sea Littoral Countries, But Problems Remain

Yesterday Tehran hosted a meeting of the foreign ministers of the five countries that surround the Caspian Sea: Iran, Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and Turkmenistan. The ministers met to plan a summit focusing on the Caspian Sea, a project that has been foundering for the last five years. Yesterday's meeting again failed to resolve key differences of opinion among the participants, and it will now fall to the leaders of the five countries to resolve the problems.
The first summit of the Caspian Sea countries took place in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan in April 2002. At that summit, the presidents of the five countries agreed that they would meet every year and that the next summit would take place in Tehran. Five years have passed since then, and the Tehran summit still has not become a reality. The issue is that an agreement between the five countries calls for their leaders to adopt a convention on the legal status of the Caspian Sea, but the various governments have so far been unable to come to a consensus on the terms of the convention. The recent conference of foreign ministers similarly failed at that task, candidly admitted Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov yesterday. "It is clear that the convention will not be ready for the highest-level meeting (between the presidents)," he said at the very beginning of the forum. To keep the second summit from being postponed indefinitely, Mr. Lavrov suggested the drafting of an "interim document that would enact rules governing the use of the Caspian that are as general and acceptable to all as possible." According to that idea, the declaration adopted at the summit will mention only those regulations concerning the future status of the Caspian Sea that do not provoke objections from the individual governments. The regulations that the different sides cannot see eye to eye on will not be included in the declaration. Instead, they will be put on the agenda for discussion by the five leaders at the summit. This proposal signifies Russia's decision to kick the thorniest problems further upstairs, to the presidential level. Yesterday Sergei Lavrov mentioned two key problems that the leaders of the five countries must resolve: the drawing of international boundaries on the Caspian Sea and the issue of military exercises in the area. These two problems are interrelated, and the Russian position on them differs from that of at least three of the other four countries. Moscow is indignant that Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan are stubbornly holding out for the complete and final division of the Caspian Sea into spheres of national territory. Not only that, but these three countries are already unilaterally establishing their sovereignty over "their" portions of the Caspian. A source close to the negotiations told Kommersant that if the Caspian Sea is divided into national territories, Russia will suffer significant losses primarily in terms of its fishing industry in the Caspian region, since the Russian sector is the one poorest in fish. That's not Russia's biggest worry, however. The division of the Caspian Sea into sectors will make it easier to lay pipelines along the bottom of the sea to transport energy products from Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan to Europe, thus bypassing Russia. In addition, much to Russia's displeasure, after the division of the Caspian the surrounding countries would gain the right to consent to a foreign military presence such as the US Navy or NATO in their sectors. From Moscow's point of view, the weak links in the circle of countries surrounding the Caspian Sea are Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, the two countries that have recently been drifting furthest to the west on the issue of military activities in the Caspian region. For example, Baku has made several excuses for its refusal to accept a Russian proposal for an agreement that would prohibit the presence of "third-party" naval vessels in the region and that would create "Kasfor," a five-state naval group based in the Caspian Sea. Azerbaijan is much more interested in the American "Caspian Defense" project. Meanwhile, Kazakhstan, while it is more flexible on the Russian initiatives, is getting Moscow's back up with its insistence on the idea of equalizing the weapons arsenals all around the Caspian Sea. The implementation of that idea would lead to a significant decrease in Russia's military presence in the region. It turns out that Russia's only remaining ally in the Caspian region is Iran. Tehran likes the Russian idea of creating Kasfor, and it does not support plans to lay trans-Caspian pipelines that would bypass Russia. Thus, the fact that the next Caspian summit will take place in Tehran does a lot for Moscow's chances against its opponents.

Russia Reluct to Share the Caspian - Kommersant Moscow

Russia seems to be dead keen to maintain her hold over her erstwhile SSRs.

If the Caspian is divided, then Russia would be in big trouble since CARs are keen to have their own rights to employ their resources as they desire and sell to whoever they wish i.e. Europe and without having to go through Russia.

A valid demand.

But can CAR survive without a nod from Russia? It can if the western nations show more interest in CAR even though republics of CAR have played the cat and mouse game with the western nations, especially the US.

Iran's presence and influence in the dialogue is another aspect that is worth considering.

The Middle East problems and the plans for oil pipelines to Europe are inputs that cannot be not considered when viewing this area of the Caspian.

Garry · 06-22-2007, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

Gorbachev wasn't stupid. He was naive. He tried to please both the reforms and the hardliners, so much so that he eroded his political support with the Politburo and the Communist Party.

Hi Stan187, he was naive not only in domestic affairs.... he expected much more from mutual relationships with west. Today we know that it was STUPID

Garry · 06-22-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

Russia seems to be dead keen to maintain her hold over her erstwhile SSRs.

If the Caspian is divided, then Russia would be in big trouble since CARs are keen to have their own rights to employ their resources as they desire and sell to whoever they wish i.e. Europe and without having to go through Russia.

A valid demand.

But can CAR survive without a nod from Russia? It can if the western nations show more interest in CAR even though republics of CAR have played the cat and mouse game with the western nations, especially the US.

Iran's presence and influence in the dialogue is another aspect that is worth considering.

The Middle East problems and the plans for oil pipelines to Europe are inputs that cannot be not considered when viewing this area of the Caspian.

Hi Ray! You are very much correct. Possition of Russia is against other Caspian nations..... in fact Russia uses their internal conflicts to avoid settlement. Such settlement would reduce risks for oil companies and expand exploration of non-russian sectors. Moreover, it would reduce dependence of all Caspian nations.

Russia is using destructive Iranian position to its favor....

US and EU position is actually more constructive there.... they want oil be pumped SOON...

Feanor · 06-22-2007, 16:18 PM

Lol yes. As soon as it comes to oil and natural gas all of a sudden Russian politicians get very smart. When it comes to everything else we hear nothing but flowery promises and big speeches, that amount to nothing.

Garry · 06-23-2007, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Lol yes. As soon as it comes to oil and natural gas all of a sudden Russian politicians get very smart. When it comes to everything else we hear nothing but flowery promises and big speeches, that amount to nothing.

yes, Russia understands its interests in oil&gas very well.... unfortunatelly for Europe and Central Asians this interests are now against fast exploration of Caspian sea resources....

Well, central asians/Caspian nations also could have been much smarter.... their problems are from their MUTUAL distrust to each other... indeed, if they had confidence in neighbors they would have resolved sea problem and built a common pipeline for both gas and oil through Caucasus and Turkey to mediterranean... but they DON NOT trust each other and that is why Russia may easilly negotiate with them separately.... and in each case to Russian benefit.

The most progmatic state there seems to be Kazakhstan... others (including cacasians) act like bunch of idiots

Feanor · 06-23-2007, 17:24 PM

Like Azerbaijan which offered Russia exclusive rights to all of it's energy resources in exchange for suppotr on its position in Nagorny Karabakh? Yeah you're absolutely right. Or like Russia managed to get the Trans-Caspian olipipe project closed in favor of another pipe running through Russia . . . . .

Kansas Bear · 06-23-2007, 19:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Lol yes. As soon as it comes to oil and natural gas all of a sudden Russian politicians get very smart. When it comes to everything else we hear nothing but flowery promises and big speeches, that amount to nothing.

How else was Turkmenistan going to get it's oil & gas to the world market?

Afghanistan?? I've yet to see anyone successfully build a pipeline in a war zone.

Rather convenient that al-Qaeda struck, yet again, and precipitated a response from the US. Just like in 1998!

Ray · 06-24-2007, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Putin call to ‘rescue’ Stalin

ADRIAN BLOMFIELD
Western plot

Moscow, June 23: President Vladimir Putin has raised the prospect of a return to Soviet-style academic censorship after he accused the West of plotting to distort Russian history in an attempt to crush patriotic sentiment in schools.

The Russian leader claimed that a generation of schoolchildren were learning a version of their past that had been deliberately skewed by historians in the pay of the West.

“Many of our textbooks are written by people on foreign grants,” Putin told history and science teachers at a conference outside Moscow.

“They are dancing a polka ordered by those who pay for it. This is undoubtedly an instrument for influencing our country.”

In a warning that will send a chill through Russia’s dwindling ranks of liberal academics, the President indicated that publishing houses that did not print more patriotic textbooks would face state censorship.

“Publishing houses should become more responsible,” he said. “The state should play a greater role in this respect.” According to the President, western historians have attempted to belittle the Soviet Union’s role in World War II and exaggerate the negative aspects of Stalin’s Great Terror in the 1930s, which saw millions of Russians die.

He said Russia’s past was much more benign and much less blood-soaked than that of the US. “We have fewer such (dark) pages than do some countries, and they were less terrible than in some countries,” he said. “We have never used nuclear weapons against civilians and we have never dumped chemical weapons on thousands of kilometres of land as was the case in Vietnam.”

Vladimir Ryzhkov, a historian and one of the last independent MPs in the Russian parliament, said that Kremlin hardliners were keen to revive Stalin’s reputation in order to justify the country’s increasingly autocratic path.

Mayor term

Putin asked the Russian capital’s legislative body yesterday to keep Moscow mayor Yuri Luzhkov in office after his term runs out in December, the Kremlin press service said. Luzhkov, 70, has been Moscow’s mayor for 15 years and is a strong Putin ally.
THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
The Telegraph - Calcutta : International

Should be music to some ears!

MrFirst · 06-24-2007, 09:03 AM

I saw the interview, Putin didn't call to rescue Stalin. He said a sort of idea we shouldn't make our children to be shamed because of our history. But actually this is not Putin's idea, a lot of people say the same for a long time regarding of textbooks as well.

Ray · 06-24-2007, 11:03 AM

And interestingly, the Indian historians (most of them are Communists or left leaning chaps) have distorted history to suit their purpose!

Feanor · 06-24-2007, 18:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

I saw the interview, Putin didn't call to rescue Stalin. He said a sort of idea we shouldn't make our children to be shamed because of our history. But actually this is not Putin's idea, a lot of people say the same for a long time regarding of textbooks as well.

Very much true.

Garry · 06-25-2007, 14:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Like Azerbaijan which offered Russia exclusive rights to all of it's energy resources in exchange for suppotr on its position in Nagorny Karabakh? Yeah you're absolutely right. Or like Russia managed to get the Trans-Caspian olipipe project closed in favor of another pipe running through Russia . . . . .

This happened mostly because Central Asians+Azerbaijan+Georgia could not agree on even how to start discussion on caspian pipeline... they were discussing who is in charge.... while Putin came in and stopped discussions offering some side deals to every party.... and this side deals WILL BE BROKEN later but it will be too late when pipeline is in place....

it was in the best interests of central asians to have this pipepine NOT THROUGH Russia....

ps. politics is such a cynical thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

How else was Turkmenistan going to get it's oil & gas to the world market?

by pipeline throug the sea to Azerbaijan, then Georgia then to Turkey.... in Turkey LPG to tankers.... However Turkmenistan never trust Azeri.... and Kazakhs don't trust both.

Garry · 06-25-2007, 14:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray

And interestingly, the Indian historians (most of them are Communists or left leaning chaps) have distorted history to suit their purpose!

Ray, history is too important to be left objective.... and truth is so complicated that people easily eat a simplified myths from palms.... I am sure, that history will be rewritten in quite a patriotic way....

I don't like this.... I will go and buy current history book. It would be interesting to see what is actually in there

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06-20-2007, 20:17 PM	#212 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	Gorbachev also had no idea how to make a nations economics work . . . . . . . otherwise he would have known that a fast transition would cause the Soviet economy to crash. In terms of Putin, you have to look at teh fact that he is notmaking any long-term investment into Russia. Instead all problems are treated with minor patch-ups, or ignored outright. And he uses his position on the world stage to make it look like Russia is coming back. This wins him what little popular suport he does have.

06-22-2007, 16:18 PM	#216 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	Lol yes. As soon as it comes to oil and natural gas all of a sudden Russian politicians get very smart. When it comes to everything else we hear nothing but flowery promises and big speeches, that amount to nothing.

06-23-2007, 17:24 PM	#218 (permalink)
Feanor Banished Join Date: 06-12-07 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,385 Country:	Like Azerbaijan which offered Russia exclusive rights to all of it's energy resources in exchange for suppotr on its position in Nagorny Karabakh? Yeah you're absolutely right. Or like Russia managed to get the Trans-Caspian olipipe project closed in favor of another pipe running through Russia . . . . .

06-24-2007, 09:03 AM	#221 (permalink)
MrFirst Contributor Join Date: 01-02-07 Location: Russia Posts: 668	I saw the interview, Putin didn't call to rescue Stalin. He said a sort of idea we shouldn't make our children to be shamed because of our history. But actually this is not Putin's idea, a lot of people say the same for a long time regarding of textbooks as well.

06-24-2007, 11:03 AM	#222 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 28,276 Country:	And interestingly, the Indian historians (most of them are Communists or left leaning chaps) have distorted history to suit their purpose!

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