braindead

Russia has had love/hate relationship with Europe since the days of Peter I at least. The energy is basicly it´s lifeline - without it Russia would be nothing. Perhaps the Japanese / Chinese could buy all Russias gas/oil exports and perhaps even pay more but Russia could not afford it , because it would lose it´s only instrument of influence . Russia has much to loose too , including WTO entry .

And the same rows with the same actions from Russia can be folowed through history , this is simpy the last one on long line :
1494 - in Tallinn a russian money-faker (?) was executed . Moscow turned off fur transit.
1924 - 1.st Dec. - Sov.-sponsored communist attempted coup (including infiltrated Red Army General Staff officers , 3 former Brigadiers etc., with direct involvment of Kamenev, Zinovjev, Frunze and Stalin ) . Amongst arrested ´´revolutionaries´´ were 5 Sov.embassy workers. And the whole thing was preluded by another embassy siege - on 17th . Nov. half a day a meeting raged on in front of Est.consulate , protest marches by soldiers, state officials and schoolchildren . . Moscow turned off transit .
History repeating itself ? (And the attempted coup gave rise to another memorable monument during Sov.era : three charging men with rifles . People used to call it ´´only revoultionary monument in the world showing ALL participants )

__________________
If i only were so smart yesterday as my wife is today

MrFirst

So, Braindead, you're asking me how would I see the improving of relations between Russia and Baltic states? But this is a question to the presidents of your states. From my personal point of view I could suppose how to not worsen these relations. For example - to leave our monuments alone. You have had the whole sixteen years to remove any monument that is not good for you, and I think Yeltsin's Russia wouldn't say a word. But it seems sixteen years is not enough for your government to resolve problems of the past, and again and again Baltic politicians find a way to bite Russian honour. The question appears here - how much time the Estonian government needs, to solve definitely and finally where which monument has to stand. If 16 years are not enough, maybe 32 years? Or 64?.. But of course that's not only monuments' issue. Perhaps, tomorrow mr.Ansip will find another "symbol of occupation", not monument - anything else, and start to fight against that once more - and what then?.. Let's do it again? We are not fed up yet, let's repeat our pr-war... Not only Estonia, do you remember the statement of Latvian president about her "disliking" to vodka and vobla? What was the purpose of saying such words? She simply wanted to insult Soviet WWII veterans, to insult Russian war memory. Obviously, she said this not for the "improving of relations" between Latvia and Russia, how do you think, Braindead? Actually, these Baltic politicians who have stayed at russophobian row, have no rational reasons for their anti-Russian policy. For example, a couple years ago Lithuania refused Russian oil company to sell oil-refining factory due to their fear of Russian influence and gave it to a Polish corporation, Russian companies refused to supply this factory with oil. Of course, Lithuania immediately has accused Russia in "energy imperialism". And a lot of such facts, not mentioning the endless searches of Russian spies, former and operating, in the Baltic.
Baltic states are independent for already 16 years, they had been under occupation, as they call that, since 1945 till 1991, they are independent for one third of this time, and that's not clear how much time they need to make completely all their claims to Russia? Our politicians hoped the Balts will calm down after joining EU and NATO, as they feel themselves in safety, but that has not happened, unfortunately.

As for this Russia-expert from Helsinki, I understand his sceptical view in respect of Russian economy, but he looks like ordinary propagandist, painting in black colours mostly. Soviet cities, which maintaining is impossible in his opinion, are built not only in Russia. Ukraine, Belarus, Baltic, Middle Asia - everywhere these "Soviet cities" are. So what? Are all of them ruined? Here he states, for example : "EU's aim is to attract Russia into Europe. Russia´s aim is opposite." And how the EU is attracting Russia? Raising the alarm, when Russia wishes to buy 5% of Airbus? Limiting the market access for Russian goods like steel, for example? Seems EU would be glad to "attract" the Russian oil and gas only, without all the rest. And so on, I do not make comments on all.

Maybe some country like Saudi Arabia would be nothing without energy. In case of Russia a lot of such "without" should be added. I'm not bragging, just a fact.

braindead

First , in our goverment president is mostly a symbolic figure , who´s biggest responsiblities are state visits and annual speech on Independence Day . The late pres.Meri did a lot of foreign policy , but this took place over ten years ago , when the lines were not clear. And I meant improving the relations in not only today´s context , but in the last 16 years as whole . As I previously posted , there have been times when the most burning issues have been basicly a necklace and university fonds . And yet Russia has shown no interest from her side . As of investments here - our goverment sold our railroad to americans and when they decided to sell off their operations our goverment had to buy it back too in order to keep it falling for russian company . But this - oil refinery´s , rairoads - this is strategic infrastructure . Would Russia sell their nucl.power plants for americans or chinese?
And about the monuments - if the tensions were that great, seems the statue was just a catalyst .But yes , I agree , the right time to remove it would have been 10 years ago. Probably had it not been the statue , it could have been next Est.-Rus. football game or something . I do not know . And remember , the thing heated up only recenty , when a man tried to take a flag to supposedly ´´celebration for people all over the world´´. Seems that the spitting ladys and kicking youth do not carry the spirit of their advertised words.
But I still support the decision , it was a morally right decision from my point of view. Definately not a priority issue and carried out not-so-well , but now there is no backing down. (Btw., our president did not support it much, he said that russia has been waiting for something like this and why should we give them the ammunition....). The riots- well , this was a surprise to me . I´ve spent my life in other cities and moved to Tallinn about 7-8 months ago. In my hometown the rus.popul. was about 10-15% and things were much more friendly.
´´Symbols of occupation´´ - well the mopping up the remnants of this is going to take some time . Some years ago Russia went ballistic about the issue of trials of deporters . In these trials the former NKVD officers were sentenced for their crimes (and if my memory is correct, none served real sentences due to health issues) in deportations of 1949 . Russia used exactly the same rhetoric as neo-nazis used to defend their heroes : ´´ah now your fighting old defenceless men etc.etc.´´. But these were men who had filled quotas/plans for deportations if not catching the designated people , then next-door ones . Plan must be filled ! So many people ended in Siberia for basicly living in wrong village or something. So you have nazi criminals who are condemned and nobody wit a little sense doubts it , and you have soviet criminals who are just as guilty and are presented by lawyers paid by russian embassy. Double standards?
And do you really doubt that there are any rus.spies in here ? But maybe you mean the lists of informers ? Well I personally think Germany did the right thing when they opened the Stasi files . Should it be open list without any limitations or should it apply only to certain people - like politicians etc. , is debatable . About your hope that Balts calm down when join the EU : well unfortunately it conceded with the time Russia´ś foreign policy became more active. Suddenly Russia started pushing their economical interests , activated the work with Russians abroad , energy blockades etc. - would you not be concerned , if you were a local here? And it is politicians JOB to present their people with all legal means , including getting all the support they can get from overseas .

And this Russia expert from Helsinki was quite critical of our handling of the crisis . It was actually about 6x longer than my small snippets , but I posted it mostly as an reply for Ray´s post. And I can guarantee you that living in Sov.built city is a recipe for financial suicide. Have you seen IR-pictures made of Sov.era houses? I strongly suspect the reason for global warming has been found

And yes , sorry about the oil/gas being sole import - I forgot nuclear reactors , fighter planes .Seriously , I will take russia as true economic superpower when I see a russian made/designed cars, TV-s , cell phones competing on ALL world markets hunting for ordinary consumers and not goverments .

Berkis

I don’t like vodka and vobla either. Seriously. Do you?

Anyway, if it sounds like an insult to you, then sorry for that.

The simple fact is, that Baltic states have been able to slip out politically from the former soviet orbit in merely in one and half decade (sorry, but culturally they have never been there).

And nobody among balts, and in the EU in general, may even cherish a slightest hope that during next couple of generations this fact will be swallowed by those, who consider the Baltics as their natural sphere of influence (nazis called it “lebensraum” or living space). Barking from the East is and will be part of daily life and one needs to know how to get on with it.

But on one point I agree – in the Soviet Union and in today’s Russia, WWII is something more than just the war. Not the orthodox, but WWII religion is that of the state.

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Usus magister est optimus

braindead

WWII the real religion ? You could be right . Recently our ambassador (the same from Moscow siege) in an interview spoke about visiting
Russias regions . She always tried to visit local museums and in each museum the history was basicly represented in following way : 1-2 rooms for prehistory-to- WWII , then several huge displays dedicated to WWII , and from after-war period again almost nothing . Seems it is the one and only thing from Russias past that has still merit to them .

MrFirst

Energy blockades? Where have you seen an energy blockade from Russia? Protection of economic interests and keeping in touch with compatriots abroad is a natural way of any government and any state. I do not understand why some people believed such things shouldn't be allowed for Russia. But anyway, if the "locals there" were concerned, they, at least, have chosen the strange method to remove their concerns, dismantling the monument.

I don't like vodka and vobla too. As far as I understand, you obviously do not know what exactly your president has said. She said: "Of course we cannot change the opinion of those elderly Russians, who on 9 May will strip vobla on a newspaper, drink vodka and sing chastushki, whilst recalling how they heroically conquered the Baltic countries."
Of course, this is nothing else but the pure insult.
She also added that the Salaspils camp in Latvia, where the Nazis carried out medical experiments on children and 90,000 people were killed, was simply a "corrective labour camp."

MrFirst

That's too perfect picture. If you see all that you list, Russia must be not simply economic superpower, but super-super-hyper-power. For the present, China pretty well covers a world requirement in cell-phones.

Ray

Hardly any reason to exult over brownie points scored.

The situation in Europe over the relationship with Russia which was doing well after the fall of the USSR is once again backsliding.

It is time to show statesmanship and not settle old scores.

If the situation worsens, then the world will slide back into the Cold War days. Given the growing clout of China, any coalescing of these two 'old friends' will not be very comfortable for the world, let alone Europe.

Already Russia has put the Central Asian Republics in its bag and concessions are to be doled out to China it is believed. If that be true, then things are getting ominous!

If the situation moves from heave to shove, the gloating of Poland will prove to be rather misplaced!

It is time to give way to Realpolitik!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

MrFirst

Their reaction once more shows they are obsessed with hate to Russia. They are glad not because of their meat, which ban might be soon cancelled in Russia, but because they think they have triumphed over Russia. The only joy for Polish authorities, perhaps?.. As I've said above, some East European countries have irrational foundations of their policy in respect of Russia.

braindead

OTOH , brownie points or not , it shows that EU as a working solution, as a one union is possible.
Realpolitik - to make it happen , it would take 2 sides to want it . And your assuming Russia IS interested in it .
Well , basicly Russias apology is what East.Eur. wants and Russia nows it very well . And you have Russias leader who laments that ´´collapse of Sov.Union is The Geopolitical Disaster of 20th century´´ . Actually it´s creation fits the description more , but maybe it´s just me .

braindead

So they have made up their mind that will not take any bull from anybody ? And irrational policy ? As I´ve written before we´ve made 3 attempts to revive foreign relations with Russia, to turn fresh page . One can hit your head against the wall only a certain amount of time . And Poland - you´ve had - I don´t know, maybe 10-13 different goverments in Poland in last 18 years .Leftist , Rightwing , conservatives , moderates , democrats , ex-communists - and Russia still has not found anybody suitable to negotiate? And somehow the food bans appear only after some countrys have some sort of disagreement with Russia . I´m seriously afraid of your health , if your food quality authorities react only on political orders . you´ve been drinking poisonus wine , eaten dioxine-soaked fish and bad meat, oranges etc. for years and only now it is discovered . I hope Russia will have many rows with it´s food providers as it seems to be the only effective quality control over there . And now it is India´s rice .

MrFirst

Meat export from India is banned for many years already, because Indian suppliers do not provide veterinary control.
Don't worry about my health, here we have enough of meat and other products without Polish participation, this is their loss, not ours, as that's easy to leave the market positions but hard to get it back again.
You wrote Estonia have made 3 attempts to revive relations with Russia? What was that? Maybe dismantling of the Bronze Soldier and provocation of riots was one of these attempts? Or that were two attempts at once? If that was so, I can only repeat - your authorities have chosen the very strange way to revive relations. Perhaps, your ambassador has been making one of such attempts, when she called the killed man looter? Or your prime-minister, reflecting about who was buried under the monument - drunken marauders and so on? No, I absolutely can't see these attempts said by you, Braindead.
As for quantity of Poland's governments, I do not understand what you are trying to say. Should Russia to adapt her foreign policy depending on what is the number of their current government there? Must that be important for us - do the Poles have their fifth or twenty fifth government? I do not see the link between quantities of Polish governments and the current state of Russian-Polish relations.

Berkis

That was Otto von Bismarck, who used to declare that the secret to politics was a good treaty with Russia.

So, no surprise that one and a half centuries later the current EU presidency is torn between the policies of German Christian and Social democrats, which more or less reflect the balance of views on Russia in Europe as a whole.

One of course may sneer at Polish statements, but unusually bold EU position during the last week’s summit, reflect that Bismarck’s policy these days within in the EU goes out of fashion.

braindead

EU resolution today :
Estonia is a "test case for the EU's solidarity," say MEPs
Institutions - 24-05-2007 - 13:35


The European Parliament expressed its full support and solidarity with Estonia in a resolution adopted by an overwhelming majority (460-31-38) in Strasbourg today. MEPs condemned Russia's belligerent rhetoric and its failure to protect Estonia's embassy in Moscow, while also calling for reconciliation with the Russian-speaking minority in Estonia.


The Parliament expressed its support and solidarity vis à vis Estonia, and noted that it regarded "attacks targeting one of the smallest EU Member States as a test case for the European Union’s solidarity." MEPs considered "inadmissible the various attempts to interfere in the internal affairs of Estonia by the Russian authorities, and reminded Russian authorities that their "indiscriminate and hostile rhetoric" would impact EU-Russian relations.

The House also called on the Russian government to respect the Vienna Convention on the protection of diplomats, expressing its alarm at the "inadequate protection of the Estonian Embassy in Moscow," and condemned Russia's use of economic pressure on Estonia as an instrument of foreign policy. It also called on the Commission and Member States to assist in the analyses of cyber-attacks on Estonian websites, and to present a study on how such attacks can be addresses at a European level.

The resolution also calls for an "Estonian domestic dialogue," which could "bridge existing gaps between the different communities" and "create new opportunities to integrate Russian-speaking Estonians," as recently suggested by Estonian President and former MEP Toomas Hendrik Ilves. It also asks the Russian government to engage in "an open and unbiased dialogue [...] on the history of the 20th century," especially the crimes against humanity perpetrated by totalitarian communism.

European Parliament - News - Press service - Info - Estonia is a "test case for the EU's solidarity," say MEPs

braindead

European Parliament resolution on Estonia
The European Parliament,
– having regard to the EU Presidency Statement of 2 May 2007 on the situation in front of the
Estonian embassy in Moscow,
– having regard to the statement on the situation in Estonia by its President, Hans-Gert
Pöttering, and the 9 May 2007 debate in plenary,
– having regard to the numerous statements of support for Estonia by the Council, the
Commission and EU governments,
– having regard to Rule 103(4) of its Rules of Procedure,
A. whereas in the capital of Estonia and in parts of north-east Estonia, between 26 and 28 April
2007, demonstrators protesting against the Estonian Government’s decision to relocate the
Soviet ‘monument to the liberators of Tallinn’ from the centre of the Estonian capital to a
military cemetery a few kilometres away were responsible for two nights of violence, which
started with demonstrators attacking the police and resulted in widespread vandalism in the
centre of Tallinn,
B. whereas police were seen using force only in extreme situations, and the Estonian Legal
Chancellor has not identified any mismanagement of the work of the police,
C. whereas the Government of Estonia explained the reasons for its decision in advance to the
Government of the Russian Federation, offering to cooperate with them during the relocation
of the monument and encouraging Russian representatives to attend the exhumations, which
the Russian authorities refused to do,
D. whereas the exhumations were conducted strictly in accordance with international standards
and norms of dignified conduct and whereas the monument has been reopened in the
cemetery with an official ceremony and participation by anti-Hitler coalition representatives,
E. whereas the violent demonstrations and attacks against law and order were conducted with
active organisation and cooperation by forces located outside Estonia,
F. whereas several high-level declarations have been made in Russia, including an official
statement by the State Duma delegation on its visit to Tallinn, calling on the Estonian
Government to step down,
G. whereas the Estonian Prime Minister has declared that these events constitute ‘a
well-coordinated and flagrant intervention into the internal affairs of Estonia’,
H. whereas immediately after the riots in Tallinn the normal functioning of the Estonian
Embassy in Moscow was blocked for seven days by hostile demonstrators from the Russian
pro-government youth organisation ‘Nashi’, which resulted in physical attacks against the
Estonian and Swedish Ambassadors, threats to demolish the embassy building, tearing down
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the Estonian flag on embassy territory, and labelling Estonia as a ‘fascist’ country,
I. whereas systematic cyber-attacks have been organised, mostly from outside Estonia, in an
attempt to block official communication lines and Estonian administration websites, whereas
those attacks have come from Russian administration IP addresses, and whereas intensive
propaganda attacks have continued via the Internet and mobile telephone messages calling
for armed resistance and further violence,
J. whereas only a few days after the Tallinn events, wide-scale restrictions on Estonian exports
to Russia have been introduced, with Russian companies suspending contracts with Estonian
firms, Estonia’s energy supplies being threatened and the Estonia-St. Petersburg train
connection being suspended from the end of June,
K. whereas the Russian authorities, including the State Duma delegation, have unfortunately
refused to enter into dialogue with the Estonian authorities and declined even to participate in
a joint press conference at the Foreign Ministry,
L. whereas Metropolitan Kornelius of the Russian Orthodox Church in Estonia has stated that
there are no grounds for intercommunal conflict and that he sees no reason to present the
riots as a conflict between Estonian-language and Russian-language communities,
M. whereas the events were further fuelled by misinformation issued by Russian media
channels, provoking further protests,
N. whereas only a tiny part of the ethnic Russian population participated in the demonstrations
and looting, the considerable number of policemen of Russian background performed their
duty with excellence, and the great majority of all those questioned approved the conduct of
the Estonian Government,
O. whereas Estonia, as an independent Member State of the EU and NATO, has the sovereign
right to assess its recent tragic past, starting with the loss of independence as a result of the
Hitler-Stalin Pact of 1939 and ending only in 1991,
P. whereas the Soviet occupation and annexation of the Baltic States was never recognised as
legal by the Western democracies,
Q. whereas the European Parliament, in its resolution of 12 May 2005, concluded that ‘for some
nations the end of World War II meant renewed tyranny inflicted by the Stalinist Soviet
Union’ and congratulated the central and eastern European countries on the occasion of
having become free ‘after so many decades under Soviet domination or occupation…’,
R. whereas only the legal successor to the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation, still denies the
fact of illegal incorporation of the Baltic States into the Soviet Union,
1. Expresses its support for, and solidarity with, the democratically elected Estonian
Government in its efforts to guarantee order, stability and the rule of law for all residents of
Estonia;
2. Regards attacks targeting one of the smallest EU Member States as a test case for the
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European Union’s solidarity;
3. Considers inadmissible the various attempts to interfere in the internal affairs of Estonia by
the Russian authorities;
4. Is alarmed by the inadequate protection of the Estonian Embassy in Moscow by the Russian
authorities and the physical attacks on the Estonian Ambassador by the ‘Nashi’
demonstrators; calls on the Russian Government to respect the Vienna Convention on the
protection of diplomats without any exception;
5. Condemns the attempts by Russia to exert economic pressure on Estonia as an instrument of
foreign policy and calls on the Russian Government to restore normal economic relations
between the two States;
6. Reminds the Russian authorities that the indiscriminate and openly hostile rhetoric used by
the Russian authorities against Estonia is in sharp contrast to the principles of international
behaviour and will impact on EU-Russia relations as a whole;
7. Calls on the European Commission and all the Member States to assist in the analyses of the
cyber-attacks on Estonian websites and to present a study on how such attacks and threats
can be addressed at EU level, and calls on Russia to assist these investigations to the full;
8. Calls on the Russian Government to engage in an open and unbiased dialogue with the
eastern and central European democracies on the history of the 20th century, as well as the
crimes against humanity, including those of totalitarian communism, committed then;
9. Welcomes the call made by the Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves, who underlined
that people who came to Estonia in Soviet times and live now in the Republic of Estonia, as
well as their children and grandchildren, are all Estonians, that all Estonians of whatever
origin have their own, very painful experience of life under three consecutive occupying
powers in the last century, and that there is a need to be able to see and understand the
tragedies of others, and reminded all parties involved that for that purpose, the Estonian
domestic dialogue must be enhanced to bridge existing gaps between the different
communities and to create new opportunities to integrate Russian-speaking Estonians in
particular;
10. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission, the
Government and Parliament of Estonia and the Government and Parliament of the Russian
Federation.

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